(July 19, 2015 at 4:01 pm)Jenny A Wrote:

(July 19, 2015 at 2:54 pm)Randy Carson Wrote: I've presented lots of evidence...you just don't like any of it because it reminds you that you are lapsed Catholic who needs to go to confession.

Actually you haven't provided facts sufficient to indicate either that there is a god or the Jesus rose from the dead.

Ditto! Not a shred one.

Throw enough shit into the fan and it is a fact that you will eventually get hit. Is that how this works?

Something that is testable, verifiable, and repeatable.

It's the bare minimum I will accept. OP does not meet this bare minimum.

(July 19, 2015 at 2:54 pm)Randy Carson Wrote: ev·i·dence
ˈevədəns/Submit
noun
1. the available body of facts or information indicating whether a belief or proposition is true or valid.

I've presented lots of evidence...you just don't like any of it because it reminds you that you are lapsed Catholic who needs to go to confession.

You don't even manage this without copy pasting. You're just a copy paste person. Nothing original about you. At least you don't let us in on any originality surrounding yourself.

So once again - what's your goal? What's in it for you?

Right now, I still give you the benefit of the doubt, although the collecting brownie points with your god thought is very strongly pushing to the forefront. Can't be that or can it? Please tell me, we're still dealing with something remotely rational here.

(July 19, 2015 at 4:08 pm)KevinM1 Wrote:

(July 19, 2015 at 3:36 pm)Mr.wizard Wrote: Soooo....when to we get to see the evidence?

Any thread now.

Probably shortly after the new Tool album comes out.

Evidence... none!

(July 19, 2015 at 11:27 am)Randy Carson Wrote: So, for the past couple of months, I've been listening to skeptics saying, "Show me the evidence, show me the evidence" again and again as if by repetition, they can somehow ward off seeing the existence of God, the existence of Jesus and the resurrection.

Therefore, I'm going to use this thread to gather examples of various types of evidence that I come across. I'll add to or subtract from this document as it seems necessary.  Consider this a work in progress.

Evidence for the Existence of God

Philosophical Arguments
Throughout history, many efforts have been made to prove or disprove the existence of God, and most of these efforts have been discarded. However, there are number of philosophical arguments which have withstood the tests of time and of criticism. The believer only needs one of these arguments to be true while the skeptic must refute all of them thoroughly; if any one of them remains intact after scrutiny, then the existence of God has been proven.


[*]The Argument from Change
[*]The Argument from Efficient Causality
[*]The Argument from Time and Contingency

[*]The Design Argument
[*]The Kalam Argument
[*]The Argument from Contingency

(I changed the order so some that were above are now below)
These are all the same. God of the gaps at the start of the Universe.
Sorry, nothing to see.

(July 19, 2015 at 11:27 am)Randy Carson Wrote: [*]The Argument from Degrees of Perfection
[*]The Argument from the World as an Interacting Whole

"Words are wind".
You can't conjure up anything just because you can speak the words...

(July 19, 2015 at 11:27 am)Randy Carson Wrote: [*]The Argument from Miracles

Really?!
-.-'

(July 19, 2015 at 11:27 am)Randy Carson Wrote: [*]The Argument from Consciousness
[*]The Argument from Truth
[*]The Argument from the Origin of the Idea of God
[*]The Ontological Argument
[*]The Moral Argument
[*]The Argument from Conscience
[*]The Argument from Desire
[*]The Argument from Aesthetic Experience
[*]The Argument from Religious Experience
[*]The Common Consent Argument

a.k.a., I want a god to exist, hence it exists.
That's not how it works, you know, Randy?

(July 19, 2015 at 11:27 am)Randy Carson Wrote: [*]Pascal's Wager (not technically an argument for God existence)
[/list]

Available here.

How nice... I tried to avoid that source to remember what those arguments actually are... bias, you know

(July 19, 2015 at 11:27 am)Randy Carson Wrote: “Modern” Miracles
Lourdes, Fatima and other appearances of Mary and Jesus approved by the Catholic Church

Riiiiight. We've been over Fátima's hoax... do you want a similar thing to happen for Lourdes?
No miracles are happening anywhere.

(July 19, 2015 at 11:27 am)Randy Carson Wrote: The Incorruptibles (saints whose bodies have not experienced corruption.)

I saw some gruesome photos of those "incurruptibles"... They look decayed.

(July 19, 2015 at 11:27 am)Randy Carson Wrote: Personal Experience
When a person comes to know God personally, this knowledge is evidence of His existence.

Is it?!
Is it, really?!
Can't you think of any other possibility? Another much much more likely possibility for someone to "come to know God personally"?
Fine, I'll tell you: it's all in their heads.
And psychology can explain these events very well. I'm sure you've read about alien abductions - same principle.

(July 19, 2015 at 11:27 am)Randy Carson Wrote: Evidence for the Existence of the Historical Jesus (Ehrman’s Criteria)

Physical Evidence (photographs, inscriptions on coins, etc.)

Have you been watching too much "Back to the future"?
Photographs?!
Which coins show that J.C. existed?

(July 19, 2015 at 11:27 am)Randy Carson Wrote: The Shroud of Turin

Covered already... another fabrication by the pious to keep the faith strong among the sheep. It worked, I must say.

(July 19, 2015 at 11:27 am)Randy Carson Wrote: Writings
Nothing written by Jesus exists.

Indeed.... unlike other historical figures, like Julius Ceaser.

(July 19, 2015 at 11:27 am)Randy Carson Wrote: Writings of Others about Jesus
New Testament Documents

At best, second hand accounts.
At worst, fabrications based on pre-existing myths.

(July 19, 2015 at 11:27 am)Randy Carson Wrote: Josephus
Tacitus
Pliny the Younger
Mara bar Serapion
Clement of Rome
Polycarp

Way too far removed - These just attest to the existence of christians.
Those exist, and you're proof! (see, you're proof, not evidence! )

(July 19, 2015 at 11:27 am)Randy Carson Wrote: Evidence for the Resurrection of Jesus

Fact 1
After his crucifixion, Jesus was buried by Joseph of Arimathea in his personal tomb. This is significant because it would have been difficult for the disciples to make up the story of an empty tomb when everyone knew where the tomb was located.
1. Jesus’ burial is attested in the very old tradition quoted by Paul in his first letter to the Corinthians.
“For what I received I passed on to you as of first importance: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, 4 that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures, 5 and that he appeared to Cephas, and then to the Twelve.” (1 Co 15:3-5)
Paul “received” this account from Peter within the first five years of Jesus’ crucifixion making the possibility of legend or myth very unlikely.
2. The account of the burial is part of very old source material used by Mark in writing his gospel. The passion narrative, in particular, is thought to be from an even earlier account that was used by all of the gospel writers.
3. As a member of the Jewish court that condemned Jesus, Joseph of Arimathea is unlikely to be a Christian invention.
4. No competing burial story exists.

(My bold)
Like I said, at best second hand accounts... and we must believe in the circumstances that lead to those accounts - Paul meeting Peter (wasn't he supposed to be at Rome?)

(July 19, 2015 at 11:27 am)Randy Carson Wrote: Fact 2
On the Sunday following the crucifixion, the tomb of Jesus was found empty by a group of his female followers.
1. The empty tomb story is part of the very old source material used by Mark.
2. The old tradition cited by Paul in 1 Corinthians implies the fact of the empty tomb.
3. Mark’s story is simple and lacks signs of legendary embellishment.
4. The fact that women’s testimony was worthless in first century Palestine strengthens the case that women were the first to discover the empty tomb. Why would any account use the suspect testimony of women if it were not an accurate recounting of what really happened?
5. The earliest Jewish allegations that the disciples had stolen Jesus’ body presupposes that the tomb was empty.

We had a huge thread on this.
The tradition of an empty does not equate to the reality of an empty tomb of the man called Jesus who was a teacher and miracle worker.

(July 19, 2015 at 11:27 am)Randy Carson Wrote: Fact 3
On multiple occasions and under various circumstances, different individuals and groups experienced appearances of Jesus alive after his death.
1. The list of eyewitnesses to Jesus’ resurrection appearances (which is quoted by Paul and vouchsafed by his personal acquaintance with many of the people involved), guarantees that such appearances occurred. These included appearances to Peter, to the Apostles, to 500 people at one time, and to James.
2. The appearance traditions in the gospels provide multiple, independent attestation to these appearances.
3. Researchers have noticed signs of historical credibility in the specific appearances; for example, the unexpected activity of the disciples’ fishing prior to Jesus’ appearance by the Lake of Tiberius or the otherwise inexplicable conversion of James.

Still second hand accounts, at best... even James' tale.
The number 500 suggests a fabrication or exaggeration.

(July 19, 2015 at 11:27 am)Randy Carson Wrote: Fact 4
The disciples believed that Jesus was risen from the dead despite having every reason not to believe it.
1. Their leader was dead, and Jews had no belief in a dying (and rising) Messiah.
2. According to Jewish law, Jesus’ execution as a criminal showed him to be a heretic and a man literally under the curse of God.
3. Jewish beliefs about the afterlife precluded anyone’s rising from the dead before the general resurrection at the end of the world.
4. The disciples were transformed from a dispirited, fearful group into a bold and fearless force willing to take on the world.

The tales written about the disciples claim that they believed so.... Why do you keep using biased language?
Again, any such claim comes to paper, at best, in second hand.

(July 19, 2015 at 11:27 am)Randy Carson Wrote: Fact 5
The conversion of Paul

Fact 6
The conversion of James

This one may work for Paul:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Temporal_l...d_symptoms

As for James, again, claims of claims... At that time, people kept converting from one religion to another... it happens.

(July 19, 2015 at 11:27 am)Randy Carson Wrote: Fact 7
The Jews who followed Jesus abandoned the Sabbath and chose the first day of the week, Sunday, as their holy day.
1. Why would Jews abandon the Sabbath day instituted by God unless something very significant had happened on Sunday?

Repeat after me: people convert.
Also, most of the initial christians were eager to break up with some of the jewish traditions... were they not?

(July 19, 2015 at 11:27 am)Randy Carson Wrote: Fact 8
The Apostles began to preach the resurrection of Jesus in Jerusalem where He had been killed.
1. They did not return to Galilee and begin preaching to people who had no knowledge of the facts concerning Jesus’ crucifixion; they began preaching right under the noses of those who were responsible for His death.
2. Anyone wanting to disprove the resurrection would only have to open the nearby tomb to display the corpse or skeleton.
3. No one on either side of the issue denied that Jesus’ tomb was empty; as stated previously, the Jews claimed that the disciples stole the body.

Any of these stories comes to us from a time that was already too far removed from the original events.
Untrustworthy account.
Biased account.
Account intended to convert people
Account intended to prey on the easily swayed.
Account of lack of reply from the other side clearly intended to raise the claimant's credibility.


But, you know Randy, if there were a god, capable of doing all those wonderful things, willing to do them, and wishing for the whole of humanity to acknowledge its existence and awesome power, I'd bet that that god wouldn't be relying on such paltry "evidence" and other "arguments", as what you've presented. It would do something about it, something for all to see, something unmistakable, something that would leave everyone knowing what's up - no more religions, no more beliefs, no more people selling tales of old and conning others... just god and everyone.
And yet, I don't see that... No religion claims that to have ever happened... well, except for the flood which we know to be bogus... so, every religion is false.
Religions had their place in the world. They were necessary... heck, there are places where they still are... there are people that might as well remain religious or their mental instability may become dangerous to others... But there are places where religion is being used as a the reason for killing.
Then there's the western world, the secular world, where we try our damned best to find out the underlying reasons for things to happen - physical, chemical or psychological, or a mix of them all... religion is not required here.
And, because of that, religion is screaming for attention - it doesn't want to die... but it is dying.
The sub-40 in Europe are among the least religious populations since writing was invented. And they just keep on growing.
Temporary increases in muslim populations from immigration are a nuisance, but show the same trend - youths get out of touch with religion.
Seemingly stationary numbers in the US are misleading, as indoctrination's effects are peeled away after religion gets pulled out of public schools.
Education is the ultimate reason why people will give up on religion - religion does not provide the correct answers.

(And now, this has taken so long to write this that I have to read some 4 pages to get up to speed...)

Gish gallop. Can't be arsed to read the whole damn thing. And to think there's more to come.

(July 19, 2015 at 3:11 pm)Minimalist Wrote: No, you've presented the opinions of people who read a book of fairy tales and agree that it says what it says.  That isn't evidence.

Do you also believe that Apollo came down from Olympus shooting arrows at the Greeks because it says so in the Iliad?  If not, why not?  That is what the old book says and anyone who reads it will have to agree with what it said.

You are a blind fool, Randy.

You're a lapsed Catholic who desperately needs to go to confession.

(July 19, 2015 at 4:01 pm)Jenny A Wrote:

(July 19, 2015 at 2:54 pm)Randy Carson Wrote: ev·i·dence
ˈevədəns/Submit
noun
1. the available body of facts or information indicating whether a belief or proposition is true or valid.

I've presented lots of evidence...you just don't like any of it because it reminds you that you are lapsed Catholic who needs to go to confession.

Actually you haven't provided facts sufficient to indicate either that there is a god or the Jesus rose from the dead.

Opinions vary, Jenny.

1 Corinthians 1:18
For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.

(July 19, 2015 at 4:15 pm)Pandæmonium Wrote: Something that is testable, verifiable, and repeatable.

It's the bare minimum I will accept. OP does not meet this bare minimum.

How do you repeat history, panda?

Have you asked Caesar to cross the Rubicon more than once? Will Paul Revere need ride a second time just to satisfy your need to know?