If God changed his mind

[Catholic_Lady]

I'm not justifying anything. Justifying would mean I'm trying to say it was right. I clearly say I think it's wrong. Twice.

Trying to understand where someone is coming from does not equal agreeing with their stance. I was trying to understand where he was coming from, and offering my perspective to others who seemed to be trying to understand where he was coming from too.

Hm, doesn't justifying a behavior mean you think the behavior is ok??

(emphasis is mine)

Justifications can just as easily be "his behavior isn't as bad as you think." That is what your post sounded like. "Look guys, when you look at it from his point of view, it's really not that bad." It's especially obvious that you're justifying him when you start using phrases like "What's worse... battling cancer for a limited amount of time, or eternity in torment?" No matter what you say about not justifying him, that right there gives lie to your denial. You are essentially saying that eternity in torment is worse than cancer so it's better to suffer cancer to be saved than not suffer it and be condemned. By extension, it would be very easy to say it's ok to pray for someone to get cancer, as long as you're doing it in the name of gawd\jeebus\holey casper so that they get saved.

If you don't agree with him, that's good. That you justify his position, whether you agree with it or not, is vile.

And, your post said nothing about you trying to see where he was coming from, but directing us to look at where he was coming from. Don't believe me? Go re-read your post.

Lol, I never claimed my initial post to Esq said anything about me. That's why I said "I was trying to understand where he was coming from, and offering my perspective to others who seemed to be trying to understand where he was coming from too."

If you want to call that "justification", and think badly of me because of it, go ahead I guess. I disagree.

[Ravenshire]

Yes you do. Gawd can never be more than a hypothetical without evidence of which you have precisely none.

Don't tell me what I do or don't have (what I hear from atheist all the time), I have my evidence through a personal relationship with God,

Either your gawd is hypothetical or that evidence you claim to have would be simple to provide. I keep asking, you keep failing.

it's not my fault you haven't sought out God.

GC

Reading comprehension is certainly not your strong suit GC. If it were, you know from the many times I've posted it, that I fucking begged your gawd for a sign. And, just like requests for evidence from you, I got jack shit.

[Ravenshire]

Lol, I never claimed my initial post to Esq said anything about me. That's why I said "I was trying to understand where he was coming from, and offering my perspective to others who seemed to be trying to understand where he was coming from too."

If you want to call that "justification", and think badly of me because of it, go ahead I guess. I disagree.

Since you keep claiming that you were trying to see Drippy's point of view,  I'm going to quote your post again:

With that being said, if you are truly trying to understand where Drich is coming from, you have to look at it through his lenses. What's worse... battling cancer for a limited amount of time, or eternity in torment? He believes that people who do not believe in God go to Hell (a sentiment I also don't share, mind you).  

Drich also said it took him getting cancer to find God.

So, since he believes the worst possible thing that can happen to someone is to be in eternal torment, and since he believes that not believing in God will get you there, and since he personally didn't find God until he got cancer, can you at least understand where he is coming from when he says that he would rather someone go through absolutely anything, regardless of how bad it is, if it would mean avoiding the [i]worst thing of all?[/i]

(emphasis is mine)

Now can you see why it looks like you are justifying his position? You were not claiming to be trying to see Drippy's point of view, but trying to explain it to Esq (and by extension, the rest of us) and point out how it isn't as bad as he thought. You want to spin it as something else, go ahead.

[Catholic_Lady]

Lol, I never claimed my initial post to Esq said anything about me. That's why I said "I was trying to understand where he was coming from, and offering my perspective to others who seemed to be trying to understand where he was coming from too."

If you want to call that "justification", and think badly of me because of it, go ahead I guess. I disagree.

Since you keep claiming that you were trying to see Drippy's point of view,  I'm going to quote your post again:

With that being said, if you are truly trying to understand where Drich is coming from, you have to look at it through his lenses. What's worse... battling cancer for a limited amount of time, or eternity in torment? He believes that people who do not believe in God go to Hell (a sentiment I also don't share, mind you).  

Drich also said it took him getting cancer to find God.

So, since he believes the worst possible thing that can happen to someone is to be in eternal torment, and since he believes that not believing in God will get you there, and since he personally didn't find God until he got cancer, can you at least understand where he is coming from when he says that he would rather someone go through absolutely anything, regardless of how bad it is, if it would mean avoiding the [i]worst thing of all?[/i]

(emphasis is mine)

Now can you see why it looks like you are justifying his position? You were not claiming to be trying to see Drippy's point of view, but trying to explain it to Esq (and by extension, the rest of us) and point out how it isn't as bad as he thought. You want to spin it as something else, go ahead.

You edited out an important part of the post, so here it is in its entirety:

Can I make a suggestion?

I'm not saying that I agree with praying for someone to get cancer in any scenario. I think doing so is wrong, even if it ends up being for the greater good.

Now I'm going to repeat those lines because I'm sure someone will accuse me of it anyway:

I'm not saying that I agree with praying for someone to get cancer in any scenario. I think doing so is wrong, even if it ends up being for the greater good.

With that being said, if you are truly trying to understand where Drich is coming from, you have to look at it through his lenses. What's worse... battling cancer for a limited amount of time, or eternity in torment? He believes that people who do not believe in God go to Hell (a sentiment I also don't share, mind you).  

Drich also said it took him getting cancer to find God.

So, since he believes the worst possible thing that can happen to someone is to be in eternal torment, and since he believes that not believing in God will get you there, and since he personally didn't find God until he got cancer, can you at least understand where he is coming from when he says that he would rather someone go through absolutely anything, regardless of how bad it is, if it would mean avoiding the worst thing of all?

... I stand by everything I say here. If you want to call it justification for an action that I already said I don't agree with, fine, go ahead.

[Lemonvariable72]

Yes you do. Gawd can never be more than a hypothetical without evidence of which you have precisely none.

Don't tell me what I do or don't have (what I hear from atheist all the time), I have my evidence through a personal relationship with God, it's not my fault you haven't sought out God.

GC

But I did seek out God.

[McDoogins]

Socrates and Plato had this figured out years ago.

The Euthyphro dilemma is found in Plato's dialogue Euthyphro, in which Socrates asks Euthyphro, "Is the pious (τὸ ὅσιον) loved by the gods because it is pious, or is it pious because it is loved by the gods?" (10a)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Euthyphro_dilemma

A sober man would say something is pious because it is pious, not because it is loved by the gods.

Basically, something isn't good just because a higher authority commands it.

[Esquilax]

Can I make a suggestion?

I'm not saying that I agree with praying for someone to get cancer in any scenario. I think doing so is wrong, even if it ends up being for the greater good.

Now I'm going to repeat those lines because I'm sure someone will accuse me of it anyway:

I'm not saying that I agree with praying for someone to get cancer in any scenario. I think doing so is wrong, even if it ends up being for the greater good.

With that being said, if you are truly trying to understand where Drich is coming from, you have to look at it through his lenses. What's worse... battling cancer for a limited amount of time, or eternity in torment? He believes that people who do not believe in God go to Hell (a sentiment I also don't share, mind you).  

Drich also said it took him getting cancer to find God.

So, since he believes the worst possible thing that can happen to someone is to be in eternal torment, and since he believes that not believing in God will get you there, and since he personally didn't find God until he got cancer, can you at least understand where he is coming from when he says that he would rather someone go through absolutely anything, regardless of how bad it is, if it would mean avoiding the worst thing of all?

I get what you're saying, I just don't think that the internal consistency of vile views makes the actual views any better. From Drich's perspective, yeah, I guess he is trying to do something good, but as always the way a person goes about fulfilling their intentions says a lot about them, and in this case there's absolutely no need for him to wish bad things on anybody. There's no need for bad things to be on the table period.

Drich believes in a god that has it in his power to convince me that he exists without giving me cancer, or beating me up, or anything like that. I'm on record, as are many people here, as saying that a god who unambiguously exists wouldn't need to do all this proxy convincing, he would just be unambiguous, and that'd be that. But Drich's god won't just show up, and one of the few ways that Drich can conceive of to get us to believe as he does is coercion through force, to have us abused until we submit out of desperation. Whatever his intentions, that's a peek into his psyche, and what it shows is a bunch of nasty little revenge fantasies about how much we have to hurt before we believe him, simmering in there.

To be clear, I've had people pray for me before. I'm sure you pray for people yourself, CL. The cancer stuff, the AIDs stuff, doesn't ever come up, with other people. The only person I've ever known who specifically made a point of telling us that his prayers also encompass a lot of bad stuff that could happen to us to force us to submit, is Drich, a man who routinely acts as smugly and condescendingly and so unlike his Christ as anyone I've ever seen.

It's nice that you think the best for Drich, and it's good having a decent christian around who does think positively, but I just can't get there myself. I've seen how he conducts himself for too long, and in the end, that doesn't even matter, because in the pursuit of a good aim he's gone to a dark, dark place. Road to hell, good intentions, and all that.

[Catholic_Lady]

Can I make a suggestion?

I'm not saying that I agree with praying for someone to get cancer in any scenario. I think doing so is wrong, even if it ends up being for the greater good.

Now I'm going to repeat those lines because I'm sure someone will accuse me of it anyway:

I'm not saying that I agree with praying for someone to get cancer in any scenario. I think doing so is wrong, even if it ends up being for the greater good.

With that being said, if you are truly trying to understand where Drich is coming from, you have to look at it through his lenses. What's worse... battling cancer for a limited amount of time, or eternity in torment? He believes that people who do not believe in God go to Hell (a sentiment I also don't share, mind you).  

Drich also said it took him getting cancer to find God.

So, since he believes the worst possible thing that can happen to someone is to be in eternal torment, and since he believes that not believing in God will get you there, and since he personally didn't find God until he got cancer, can you at least understand where he is coming from when he says that he would rather someone go through absolutely anything, regardless of how bad it is, if it would mean avoiding the worst thing of all?

I get what you're saying, I just don't think that the internal consistency of vile views makes the actual views any better. From Drich's perspective, yeah, I guess he is trying to do something good, but as always the way a person goes about fulfilling their intentions says a lot about them, and in this case there's absolutely no need for him to wish bad things on anybody. There's no need for bad things to be on the table period.

Drich believes in a god that has it in his power to convince me that he exists without giving me cancer, or beating me up, or anything like that. I'm on record, as are many people here, as saying that a god who unambiguously exists wouldn't need to do all this proxy convincing, he would just be unambiguous, and that'd be that. But Drich's god won't just show up, and one of the few ways that Drich can conceive of to get us to believe as he does is coercion through force, to have us abused until we submit out of desperation. Whatever his intentions, that's a peek into his psyche, and what it shows is a bunch of nasty little revenge fantasies about how much we have to hurt before we believe him, simmering in there.

To be clear, I've had people pray for me before. I'm sure you pray for people yourself, CL. The cancer stuff, the AIDs stuff, doesn't ever come up, with other people. The only person I've ever known who specifically made a point of telling us that his prayers also encompass a lot of bad stuff that could happen to us to force us to submit, is Drich, a man who routinely acts as smugly and condescendingly and so unlike his Christ as anyone I've ever seen.

It's nice that you think the best for Drich, and it's good having a decent christian around who does think positively, but I just can't get there myself. I've seen how he conducts himself for too long, and in the end, that doesn't even matter, because in the pursuit of a good aim he's gone to a dark, dark place. Road to hell, good intentions, and all that.

Thank you for the thorough response.

I can't comment on all the things you said about Drich, as I am not very familiar with him and his posts. This is my first interaction with him, actually. (Hi Drich!)
But before concluding that a person is not a good person, I try to look at things from their perspective... and while I disagree with Drich about praying for cancer in any scenario, I can see that his intentions do not come from a place of hatred. I was trying to convey that to you guys.

As for your comments about God, personally I believe God knows that each person is different and has different needs and different ways of being reached. Perhaps some people can only find God when they go through a really really dark time in their life where they seek something more. The way I see it, this doesn't make God horrible for reaching people that way if that's the way it would work for them personally. Not saying God literally makes people get cancer or whatever, but He doesn't stop it from happening, especially if that's what it takes to reach someone. I think if God were to materialize in front of all of us and cease with the ambiguity to where we could see him and talk to him everyday, a lot of people would hate Him. They would blame Him for anything in their life that was not perfect, and start asking for all kinds of things. I can see how that would get out of hand and would actually hurt many people's relationship with God. I can only suspect that that's why He doesn't do it.  

I know you don't believe in God anyway, so it's whatever. But since you brought this up, I figured I'd share my own explanations. :-)

[Wyrd of Gawd]

Yeah, I guess I don't understand.

I would do whatever God told me to do. Why? Because I do not worship a specific ideology/version of morality. I worship God. Example: if religion tells you to do xyz, and let's say God says do ABC, I will always do ABC.

The only bit I was joking about is targeting the members of this board. There are plenty of atheists and that live around me to take out first.

But again, God has told us to love Him first and then each other as ourselves. So with the same zeal and effort I follow that command. Not because it is intrinsically the right thing to do, but because I love and serve God. It is only "right" to love God first and love each other, because God said so.

So what if God changed His mind?

It is far more likely that the culture changes its mind about us per our historical record, than God changing his mind on how we are to act.

OK, since you've found God and will do whatever he tells you to do then walk across the Atlantic Ocean.  If you say that such a thing is silly it becomes obvious that you don't really trust God.  And if you say that God isn't aking you to do that your're ignoring what you just read.  If you believe that God created everything in the universe then why would you doubt what you've just read when you write about how you believe the stories in the Bible are true?  In this instance you are getting the message directly from God right before your very own face.  All you have to do is take the first step into the ocean.  You will be just fine once you start walking.  But if you don't do it then you lack faith and it's off to the lake of fire with you. 

Remember, Jesus walked on water and he said that if a person has true faith thatthe person would be able to do even greater things that Jesus did himself.  You won't need to take any food because God fed millions of Israelites with manna from heaven for 40 years in the desert.  You won't need clothes or any special equipment because Jesus sent his disciples out to spread the Gospel without those things.  The sea is calling your name.  If you love God you will do this simple thing to prove it.

[Drich]

Please tell me your really not that stupid....

I offered to pray what ever it took to find God, for anyone who wanted me to. (Again, this could mean a winning lottery ticket or cancer/aids) This is nothing different than what I prayed for myself and I found God.

You spun that offer for a reason not to have to think about unleashing your hate. Your words tell me that your just looking for a reason to feel justified in your bigotry. You are looking for a key word to turn your logic and reason off, and you found one. Your not giving a f*ck why proves this.

Your words makes you the monster. To wish only "good things" on someone even if it means their long term ruin is beyond contemptible. Would you only allow your kids to eat the cake and candy they want to eat all day every day? Or would you provide them with a balanced diet even if they hated healthy food, and only want to eat what tastes good?

Well lets see. First off I'm not your kid,

First, The situation is You over Your kids. You being the ultimate authority over them. Like wise God being the Ultimate Authority over you.
I simply offered to pray what ever it took. I again did not put myself in a position to decide whether or not you got the carrot or stick, just Ask God to put you in line for one or the other.

second off I guess I am a bigot because of my hate the sin not sinner attitude towards Christianity. But what scares me is that your belief system has your mind so twisted that you inflicting torture on someone is equilevant to making a kid eat their vegetables. How about before you start wishing shit on us, or even coming to an atheist forum, how about talking to the other 40000 kinds of Christian so you guys can get your story straight, because even you guys on this forum can't agree with each other.

Again, bigot. Look at my actual wording not what your Hate filled mind has twisted my words to say.

If you can admit that you are a bigot then wouldn't it stand to reason that you could also admit to cherry picking a comfirmation biased statement out of my original words?

Remember bigot your the bad guy here even by pop culture standards. Why? because bigots lie/misrepresent to themselves about the actions of whole groups of other people in a propagandist effort to win mob appeal, so that action can be justified. That's what you have admitted to doing. You don't care what I have actually said, you were able to cherry pick out several key words and reassemble them to justify turning off your logic and reason, and replace it with self righteous hate mongering.