Why Christianity?

[Randy Carson]

So predictable. I almost edited my post for that very reason, but I decided to see if you would take the bait.

So, now you're both predictable and boring.

This is not the Kaninchen of old. What's got you off your game?

Oh, Randy, I'm sorry but you don't get to determine anything at all.

Does God exist, Kaninchen?

[Kaninchen]

Oh, Randy, I'm sorry but you don't get to determine anything at all.

Does God exist, Kaninchen?

As I said, from your responses, you're patently not bright enough to understand the answer to that question.

[Pizza]

Does God exist, Kaninchen?

As I said, from your responses, you're patently not bright enough to understand the answer to that question.

Ineffability is not a word in the apologist's vocabulary.

[Kaninchen]

As I said, from your responses, you're patently not bright enough to understand the answer to that question.

Ineffability is not a word in the apologist's vocabulary.

With Randy, it's that it's not in the sales materials.

If he hasn't got the particular leaflet for that feature, forget it.


 

[Huggy Bear]

Huggy74 is quoting the NT(Acts) at a Jew. LOL!

What do you think Paul was?

[abaris]

In Randy's mind (he said it on CAF) he's been shooting fish in a barrel here for weeks.

Yes, he's the one thing I really despise in life: Arrogant ignorance. Breast pounding is part of the deal. Doesn't come unexpected. I take GC and all the other theists coming here over him any time, since they're at least honest, consistent and most of all human in what they believe. But Randy wasn't able to formulate one single original thought since he came here.

What do you think Paul was?

And what credit does than lend to your claims exactly?

[Pizza]

Ineffability is not a word in the apologist's vocabulary.

With Randy, it's that it's not in the sales materials.

If he hasn't got the particular leaflet for that feature, forget it.


 

Ineffability undermines the whole shallow apologetics enterprise. That's likely why it's not in the leaflet.

That reminds me of this criticism of "Mere Christianity":

“And secondly, I think we must admit that the discussion of these disputed points has no tendency at all to bring an outsider into the Christian fold. So long as we write and talk about them we are much more likely to deter him from entering any Christian communion than to draw him into our own. Our divisions should never be discussed except in the presence of those who have already come to believe that there is one God and that Jesus Christ is His only Son” (p.vi).

This is a very interesting – some would say damning – confession. Lewis claims that the doctrinal disputes between Christian sects are more likely to turn a seeker away than cause him to convert – and that therefore the appropriate response is to hide these disputes from people who are considering Christianity. How could such behavior be called anything other than deceptive?
If a person converts to Christianity because an evangelist has concealed from him some relevant fact that might have deterred him from converting had he known it in advance, then his conversion was made under false pretenses – it came about as the result of a lie. This would be comparable to a person who buys a house because its former owners failed to disclose that it was built on the site of a toxic waste dump. If Lewis is actually recommending that Christian evangelists practice this sort of dishonest behavior, what does this say about his own ethics?

[Huggy Bear]

The Torah specifically states that the savior was to be a warrior.  The Jesus of the Christian religion was no such warrior, for he was the equivalent of the modern day pacifist hippy.  Therefore, according to Judaism, Jesus Christ was not the son of god.

You realize that Jesus appears more than once right? His first coming was as a savior, his second coming is as a warrior during the battle of Armageddon

Revelation 16
12 And the sixth angel poured out his vial upon the great river Euphrates; and the water thereof was dried up, that the way of the kings of the east might be prepared.
13 And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet.
14 For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.
15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.
16 And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.

Revelation 19
11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.
12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.
13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.
15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, King Of Kings, And Lord Of Lords.
17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God;
18 That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.
19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.
20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.
21 And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.

And just in case you want to claim that's irrelevant because it's from the new testament, I'll include one from the old testament also

Zechariah 12
8 In that day shall the Lord defend the inhabitants of Jerusalem; and he that is feeble among them at that day shall be as David; and the house of David shall be as God, as the angel of the Lord before them.
9 And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem.
10 And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.
11 In that day shall there be a great mourning in Jerusalem, as the mourning of Hadadrimmon in the valley of Megiddon.
12 And the land shall mourn, every family apart; the family of the house of David apart, and their wives apart; the family of the house of Nathan apart, and their wives apart;
13 The family of the house of Levi apart, and their wives apart; the family of Shimei apart, and their wives apart;
14 All the families that remain, every family apart, and their wives apart.

Note the part where it says "and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced", and ask yourself this, why is God talking about being "pierced"?  So who is really talking here? Also when the "Inhabitants of Jerusalem" (read: Jews) find out "whom they have peirced" they mourn "as one mourneth for his only son", Why? Apply some of that critical thinking...

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Goodness, I thought you Christians thought that Jesus was a God.

Meanwhile, Judaism isn't just not Christianity minus Jesus, it isn't what Christians would like it to be in order to explain Christianity, either.

Jesus referred to himself as "son of man", are you telling me that you, being Jewish, don't realize that "son of man" is another term for prophet?

Ezekiel 33
1 Again the word of the Lord came unto me, saying,
2 Son of man, speak to the children of thy people, and say unto them, When I bring the sword upon a land, if the people of the land take a man of their coasts, and set him for their watchman:

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And what credit does than lend to your claims exactly?

I wasn't making any claims, I was making a point.

Huggy74 is quoting the NT(Acts) at a Jew. LOL!

The point was, that statement makes no sense, seeing how the most prominent writer of the new testament was a Jew.

[Pizza]

"Jesus referred to himself as "son of man", are you telling me that you, being Jewish, don't realize that "son of man" is another term for prophet?"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Son_of_man_(Judaism)

"The Hebrew expression "son of man" (בן–אדם i.e. ben-'adam) appears one hundred and seven times in the Hebrew Bible.[1] This is the most common Hebrew construction for the singular, appearing 93 times in the Book of Ezekiel alone and 14 times elsewhere. In thirty two cases, the phrase appears in intermediate plural form "sons of men".[1] As generally interpreted by Jews, "son of man" denotes mankind generally in contrast to deity or godhead, with special reference to their weakness and frailty[2]"

I'm not seeing anything about prophets here.

You do realize Jews don't believe Jesus is a prophet, right? Quote mining the Christian version-OT for vague verses and saying "that's predicting Jesus" isn't going to cut the mustard.  If you're trying to convert a Jew to Christianity you're doing a poor job. Jewish theology isn't the same as Christian theology. Jews don't believe Jesus is the messiah. The Jews don't even think the messiah is god in human form. Kaninchen will hopefully correct me on this if I'm wrong.

[Huggy Bear]

"Jesus referred to himself as "son of man", are you telling me that you, being Jewish, don't realize that "son of man" is another term for prophet?"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Son_of_man_(Judaism)

"The Hebrew expression "son of man" (בן–אדם i.e. ben-'adam) appears one hundred and seven times in the Hebrew Bible.[1] This is the most common Hebrew construction for the singular, appearing 93 times in the Book of Ezekiel alone and 14 times elsewhere. In thirty two cases, the phrase appears in intermediate plural form "sons of men".[1] As generally interpreted by Jews, "son of man" denotes mankind generally in contrast to deity or godhead, with special reference to their weakness and frailty[2]"

I'm not seeing anything about prophets here.

Because Wikipedia is the final authority? search through the bible and see who the term "son of man" is referring to.

You do realize Jews don't believe Jesus is a prophet, right? Quote mining the Christian version-OT for vague verses and saying "that's predicting Jesus" isn't going to cut the mustard.  If you're trying to convert a Jew to Christianity you're doing a poor job. Jewish theology isn't the same as Christian theology. Jews don't believe Jesus is the messiah. The Jews don't even think the messiah is god in human form. Kaninchen will hopefully correct me on this if I'm wrong.

Of course I realize that the Jews don't believe in God, that was the whole point... the Jews had to reject Jesus and break the covenant that God had made with the Jews in order to make a new covenant with the gentiles.

Matthew 22
2 The kingdom of heaven is like unto a certain king, which made a marriage for his son,
3 And sent forth his servants to call them that were bidden to the wedding: and they would not come.
4 Again, he sent forth other servants, saying, Tell them which are bidden, Behold, I have prepared my dinner: my oxen and my fatlings are killed, and all things are ready: come unto the marriage.
5 But they made light of it, and went their ways, one to his farm, another to his merchandise:
6 And the remnant took his servants, and entreated them spitefully, and slew them.
7 But when the king heard thereof, he was wroth: and he sent forth his armies, and destroyed those murderers, and burned up their city.
8 Then saith he to his servants, The wedding is ready, but they which were bidden were not worthy.
9 Go ye therefore into the highways, and as many as ye shall find, bid to the marriage.
10 So those servants went out into the highways, and gathered together all as many as they found, both bad and good: and the wedding was furnished with guests

If you're familiar with the story of Joseph and his brothers in Genesis, you should realize that story is a foreshadowing of Jesus and the Jews in the New Testament.

I will do my best to paraphrase the story because it is rather long.

Joseph(representing Jesus) had twelve brothers (representing the 12 tribes of Israel) and to make a long story short, Joseph had a coat of many colors (which we know the rainbow represents a promise) symbolizing Joseph as the promised son (the messiah). Josephs brothers were jealous of him and sold him into slavery for 20 pieces of silver, then reported to their father that Joseph had been killed (he later finds out he is alive representing the death and resurrection of Jesus).

Eventually Joseph ends up in a dungeon were he meets the  butler and baker (Jesus and the two thieves) he tells the butler he will be restored back to his position (Jesus tells one of the thieves that he will be in paradise) and the other will be executed (obviously the other thief did not go to paradise).

Soon Joseph is placed in charge of Egypt and marries an Egyptian a gentile...(Jesus ascends to the right hand of God and being rejected of the Jews goes to the gentiles).

Eventually there is a famine and Joseph's (representing Jesus) brothers (representing the Jews) come to Egypt buy food, but when they stand before Joseph they don't recognize their own brother (the same way the Jews don't recognize Jesus as the messiah). Eventually he reveals who he really is to his brothers (after Jesus is done with the gentiles he then returns to the Jews and reveals himself to be the messiah, and this is also when the prophecies concerning the messiah are fulfilled).

Genesis 45
1 Then Joseph could not refrain himself before all them that stood by him; and he cried , Cause every man to go out from me. And there stood no man with him, while Joseph made himself known unto his brethren. 2 And he wept aloud : and the Egyptians and the house of Pharaoh heard . 3 And Joseph said unto his brethren, I am Joseph; doth my father yet live? And his brethren could not answer him; for they were troubled at his presence.

The Prophecy of Jesus revealing himself to the Jews after the battle of Armageddon (from the old testament btw).

Zechariah 12
9 And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem. 10 And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced , and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn. 11 In that day shall there be a great mourning in Jerusalem, as the mourning of Hadadrimmon in the valley of Megiddon.

*edit*

And since you seem to believe I'm "quote mining" a christian version of the old testament, I'll post a link to the Hebrew version and you can read it for yourself.

http://www.mechon-mamre.org/p/pt/pt2312.htm

Zechariah 12
10 And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplication; and they shall look unto Me because they have thrust him through; and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his first-born.

Now whats your excuse?