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RE: Core Message Of Christianity Isn't One Of Love
August 30, 2015 at 4:12 am
(August 26, 2015 at 6:03 am)Imaginos7 Wrote: The message of Christianity is basically that God/Jesus wants you to believe, love and worship him, and if you don't do it he'll send you to hell to be tortured for eternity.
How is this be interpreted as a message of love?
I was just reading the thread "What Human Rights?" posted by Nestor under the Philosophy forum,
wherein Chad Wooters posted:
" The idea of inalienable human rights is inconsistent with modern atheism. "
I am too tired to be drawn into that argument right now,
but I would like to see that argument cross paths with this one.
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RE: Core Message Of Christianity Isn't One Of Love
August 30, 2015 at 5:41 am
(This post was last modified: August 30, 2015 at 7:00 am by robvalue.)
Fucking modern atheism. I can't keep up with all these strawmen.
On an unrelated note, here's some imaginary conversations between me and some strawmen Christians.
Me: "It says here in the bible [obviously horrible immoral statement X]."
Straw: "Ah, my child. Do you not see? Ah. Does it not also say [much nicer sounding statement Y which completely contradicts X]?"
Me: "Yes, it does also say that. So your defence is that the bible gives no clear message on this at all and you just do what you want to do anyway and claim religious righteousness either way?"
Straw: "You have rumbled me, I'm now an atheist."
Me: "Oh hi, another Christian."
Straw2: "Hi. I am here and willing to support everything the bible says."
Me: "Erm, OK. If you insist. Why does it say [gruesome statement Z]?"
Straw2: "Jesus came down and got rid of that bit."
Me: "Well, he didn't do a very good job. It's still there. Look!" *Waves bible about*
Straw2: "Your logic is flawless. I'm now an atheist. I'll fetch another Christian for you, hold on..."
Here, have some Christian love.
http://youtu.be/vgk7MXWQOAM
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RE: Core Message Of Christianity Isn't One Of Love
August 30, 2015 at 9:11 am
(August 30, 2015 at 3:28 am)Nestor Wrote: I'm fairly sure the Old Testament speaks of Sheol, or Hades, which to the ancients was the Underworld (because it was under the earth, or so they thought) and it basically served the purpose of heaven and hell - people are judged for their actions in life, the good rest in peace, and the bad are tortured and enslaved. Jesus taught this as well, in his story about the rich man and Lazarus, citing a river that divides the half containing the pious from those that are wicked. The early Christians even devoted an entire myth to Jesus going down to Hades to preach the Gospel so that all of the righteous Hebrews of old could be saved to partake in the future Resurrection. Even as "late" as the turn of the third century, Christian theologians taught that when you die, you go to Hades, or Abraham's bosom as they now called it, and you wait there until the Day of Judgment. When that occurs, the world supposedly goes to shit, the unbelievers are cast into hell, or the the lake of fire, and the Christians get to dwell in the new Jerusalem where Jesus reigns as monarch.
Think about that. David said if (not when)he descended to hell god would be there. That means the place he was talking about was not the place of eternal separation from god the Christians today tell us about. Sheol or hades was not in the prophets. In classic Judaism the dead were dead. See Ecclesiastic 9:5. When you talk about a river that sounds like Styx. Apocalyptic Judaism was introduced when the people saw god was not going to save them from the Babylonians and really began to supplant the teachings of the prophets in the second century BCE. You can’t understand all the contradictions and discrepancies in the Old Testament unless you know about all the waring theologies that went into its writing. There was no general resurrection or mention of Abraham’s Bosom in the Old Testament. These concepts are strictly apocalyptic. If I’m wrong please show me the chapter and verse and I will stand corrected. (unless it’s scripture that has to be interpreted to make it say that.)
The god who allows children to be raped out of respect for the free will choice of the rapist, but punishes gay men for engaging in mutually consensual sex couldn't possibly be responsible for an intelligently designed universe.
I may defend your right to free speech, but i won't help you pass out flyers.
Those who can make you believe absurdities, can make you commit atrocities.
--Voltaire
Nietzsche isn't dead. How do I know he lives? He lives in my mind.
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RE: Core Message Of Christianity Isn't One Of Love
August 30, 2015 at 9:25 am
(August 30, 2015 at 9:11 am)Rhondazvous Wrote: (August 30, 2015 at 3:28 am)Nestor Wrote: I'm fairly sure the Old Testament speaks of Sheol, or Hades, which to the ancients was the Underworld (because it was under the earth, or so they thought) and it basically served the purpose of heaven and hell - people are judged for their actions in life, the good rest in peace, and the bad are tortured and enslaved. Jesus taught this as well, in his story about the rich man and Lazarus, citing a river that divides the half containing the pious from those that are wicked. The early Christians even devoted an entire myth to Jesus going down to Hades to preach the Gospel so that all of the righteous Hebrews of old could be saved to partake in the future Resurrection. Even as "late" as the turn of the third century, Christian theologians taught that when you die, you go to Hades, or Abraham's bosom as they now called it, and you wait there until the Day of Judgment. When that occurs, the world supposedly goes to shit, the unbelievers are cast into hell, or the the lake of fire, and the Christians get to dwell in the new Jerusalem where Jesus reigns as monarch.
Think about that. David said if (not when)he descended to hell god would be there. That means the place he was talking about was not the place of eternal separation from god the Christians today tell us about. Sheol or hades was not in the prophets. In classic Judaism the dead were dead. See Ecclesiastic 9:5. When you talk about a river that sounds like Styx. Apocalyptic Judaism was introduced when the people saw god was not going to save them from the Babylonians and really began to supplant the teachings of the prophets in the second century BCE. You can’t understand all the contradictions and discrepancies in the Old Testament unless you know about all the waring theologies that went into its writing. There was no general resurrection or mention of Abraham’s Bosom in the Old Testament. These concepts are strictly apocalyptic. If I’m wrong please show me the chapter and verse and I will stand corrected. (unless it’s scripture that has to be interpreted to make it say that.) ^Yep hell isn't a separation from god
Atheism is a non-prophet organization join today.
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RE: Core Message Of Christianity Isn't One Of Love
August 30, 2015 at 9:27 am
Yeah, from what I've been reading that Shoel place isn't exactly the same as the brand spanking new Jesus torture chamber. Of course the bible can never be consistent about anything one page to the next.
From my reading, it seems a lot more like god smite you and you dead in the OT.
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RE: Core Message Of Christianity Isn't One Of Love
August 30, 2015 at 11:40 am
(August 30, 2015 at 9:27 am)robvalue Wrote: Yeah, from what I've been reading that Shoel place isn't exactly the same as the brand spanking new Jesus torture chamber. Of course the bible can never be consistent about anything one page to the next.
From my reading, it seems a lot more like god smite you and you dead in the OT. Isn't it odd that the NT is supposed to be the dispensation of grace and mercy, yet while in the OT you weren't responsible for anybody's sin but your own. Under grace, we have to pay for the sin of a cat we never saw.
This is love?
The god who allows children to be raped out of respect for the free will choice of the rapist, but punishes gay men for engaging in mutually consensual sex couldn't possibly be responsible for an intelligently designed universe.
I may defend your right to free speech, but i won't help you pass out flyers.
Those who can make you believe absurdities, can make you commit atrocities.
--Voltaire
Nietzsche isn't dead. How do I know he lives? He lives in my mind.
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RE: Core Message Of Christianity Isn't One Of Love
August 30, 2015 at 12:16 pm
(August 26, 2015 at 6:37 am)Alex K Wrote: You better show Him some love, or you'll get fried. See? Love. I love how Atheists are not capable of deep thinking. They take everything so literal without ever defining their own belief system. I am a Christian and I'm not afraid to share my belief system. I believe the word of God has a deeper meaning then we are capable of comprehending. For example, for all we know, hell does not really exist but is described in the scripture for other reasons. Maybe hell is simply used as a teaching tool? Or maybe hell does exist but is only meant for pure evil...someone like Hitler? Maybe it was never intended for someone who simply doesn't believe in God but has a clean soul?
I love how Atheists love to attack the beliefs of other people without ever defining their own beliefs. I suppose Atheists are superior to people who believe in a creator because science has obviously proved that matter has existed forever with no beginning. Your belief system has absolutely no scientific evidence to support your claims. It is not superior to any religion so do not be so quick to waste your life away attacking religion.
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RE: Core Message Of Christianity Isn't One Of Love
August 30, 2015 at 1:04 pm
(This post was last modified: August 30, 2015 at 1:04 pm by robvalue.)
Err.....
What belief system would that be? We're not a hive mind.
You said we haven't defined our belief system, then you said our belief system has no evidence. Which is it?
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RE: Core Message Of Christianity Isn't One Of Love
August 30, 2015 at 2:28 pm
(August 30, 2015 at 12:16 pm)deep thinker Wrote: (August 26, 2015 at 6:37 am)Alex K Wrote: You better show Him some love, or you'll get fried. See? Love. I love how Atheists are not capable of deep thinking. They take everything so literal without ever defining their own belief system. I am a Christian and I'm not afraid to share my belief system. I believe the word of God has a deeper meaning then we are capable of comprehending. For example, for all we know, hell does not really exist but is described in the scripture for other reasons. Maybe hell is simply used as a teaching tool? Or maybe hell does exist but is only meant for pure evil...someone like Hitler? Maybe it was never intended for someone who simply doesn't believe in God but has a clean soul?
I love how Atheists love to attack the beliefs of other people without ever defining their own beliefs. I suppose Atheists are superior to people who believe in a creator because science has obviously proved that matter has existed forever with no beginning. Your belief system has absolutely no scientific evidence to support your claims. It is not superior to any religion so do not be so quick to waste your life away attacking religion.
Belief is just a word people use as a substitute for Truth when the Truth is not known.
I think what you're basically saying is that the bible MIGHT be able to to be taken literally,
or it MIGHT be entirely meant metaphorically,
and we have to guess and just hope we get it right
....and you think everyone should develop their own set of fairytales, instead of all believing the same fairytale,
as if it's an english class and the prof wants to see a unique parsing on the part of each student, of the same novel,
....and you think we shouldn't attack religion,
even though it is a set of unsubstantiated theories perpetually passed off as undisputed truth
and used to oppress, confuse, manipulate and kill people.
you said,
" Your belief system has absolutely no scientific evidence to support your claims. "
That sentence doesn't compute.
Atheists don't have a "belief system", period.
We have science.
And it's claims are always either proven, disproven,
or readily acknowledged to be unknown.
Are you suggesting that your belief system is supported by scientific evidence?
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RE: Core Message Of Christianity Isn't One Of Love
August 30, 2015 at 3:15 pm
(August 30, 2015 at 12:16 pm)deep thinker Wrote: (August 26, 2015 at 6:37 am)Alex K Wrote: You better show Him some love, or you'll get fried. See? Love. I love how Atheists are not capable of deep thinking. They take everything so literal without ever defining their own belief system. I am a Christian and I'm not afraid to share my belief system. I believe the word of God has a deeper meaning then we are capable of comprehending. For example, for all we know, hell does not really exist but is described in the scripture for other reasons. Maybe hell is simply used as a teaching tool? Or maybe hell does exist but is only meant for pure evil...someone like Hitler? Maybe it was never intended for someone who simply doesn't believe in God but has a clean soul?
I love how Atheists love to attack the beliefs of other people without ever defining their own beliefs. I suppose Atheists are superior to people who believe in a creator because science has obviously proved that matter has existed forever with no beginning. Your belief system has absolutely no scientific evidence to support your claims. It is not superior to any religion so do not be so quick to waste your life away attacking religion. What is the basic rule in the Bible (and also in the Koran)?
The basic rule is that a person must believe and obey without exception. All of the biblical stories are about that and they show what happens when people don't comply. When the God character told his minions to go and slaughter everyone did he commend them for showing mercy? No, he was pissed that they didn't do as they had been ordered to do.
In the sermon on the mount did Jesus tell the local yokels that it was OK for them to do things that they thought were good to do? No, he told them that if they did not do exactly as he told them to do that he would toss their butts into the lake of fire.
Why was Cain not punished for killing Able? Because God had never told Cain that he shouldn't kill him.
Why was Adam & Eve punished? Because they didn't believe what God had told them and they did something that he had told them not to do.
Why was Abraham rewarded for gutting and roasting his son and spending his lifetime screwing his sister? Because God told him to do it and he believed and obeyed.
So the basic rule in the Bible and in the Koran is to believe and obey without exception or else God (or Allah) will toss you into the lake of fire. They won't let you decide for yourself what is right or wrong. You have to follow what they say is right and wrong. So no shrimp or pork chop dinners.
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