Abortion is love

[Kingpin]

Hey Rob, I will step up to the plate and respond.  

First off, having children is somewhat of a paradox.  What I mean by this is that people do not NEED to have kids but WANT to have kids.  It is a selfish desire to procreate.  We are certainly at a point in our society where procreation is not necessary to species survival, in fact some would argue for sterilization in some countries, and indeed some countries do have laws to limit number of children, etc.  So all in all people have children out of a personal desire.  The reason I say it's a paradox is because of out this selfish desire, becomes selfless love.  Those who are parents here wold most likely agree that after you have children, your entire life changes and your decisions/life choices center around your children.  Some parents forego their dreams, aspirations, careers, etc all for their kids.  It's about sacrifice.  That is truly the most loving thing a parent can really do for the kids, is to sacrifice their own desires and put the kids needs first.  

I understand your premises, but I think that would only apply to a fanatical form of religion to be honest.  I encourage my children to discover what they want, be who they are and I will help them and answer any questions best I know how.  I will give them guidelines to follow in my home, teach them respect and care for others, love and protect them like nothing else, and let them be their own person.  Belief in God is a one on one personal thing that each person makes for themself.  I don't shy away from my belief when the kids ask me and if they choose not to believe, that would not change my love for them one iota.  

You say there is so much pain and heartache, but is there not also love, wonder, amazement and joy?  Pain and heartache is not all there is.  I have experienced plenty of that in my life and very young, but overall life is an amazing joy to live.

While I truly appreciate this post for what it is, my question is this, if you believe that there is a judgement after this life that will determine where you and your family will spend eternity, one destination being paradise and one destination being punishment,  why would you not be fanatical about that?

Fair enough question FNM.  I do believe there will be a judgment and there is an eternal life after we die.  I also tell my kids that is my belief when they ask.  As any parents with kids knows, kids love to ask questions and continuously ask why.  My oldest daughters just started fifth grade and are really intelligent.  I caught my one daughter last weekend reading "The God Delusion" off my bookshelf.  She didn't ask me any questions, and I'm quite sure a lot of it was over her head, but she was inquisitive on her own. They started asking the tough life questions a few years ago and are now at an age they are exploring options on their own.  When they ask about God, I tell them what I believe.  Of course they ask why.  This is where it gets difficult with kids, because i can't give a ten year old the same philosophical argument I give to you.  It goes over their head, or they just believe it because Daddy said so.  So I will answer in ways I hope they can understand and they will either press it or leave it and come back later when their knowledge has expanded and they can ask more questions.  I want to encourage them to expand their horizons and not accept anything at face value but examine it.  You have to keep in mind, that I personally am not the arbiter of other people's eternal fate.  That is up to God.  All I can do is continue to examine, question, answer questions as best I can and lead my life as an example for my kids to follow.  Whether they choose to or not is their decision and not one I would force on them.

[Catholic_Lady]

Hey Rob, I will step up to the plate and respond.  

First off, having children is somewhat of a paradox.  What I mean by this is that people do not NEED to have kids but WANT to have kids.  It is a selfish desire to procreate.  We are certainly at a point in our society where procreation is not necessary to species survival, in fact some would argue for sterilization in some countries, and indeed some countries do have laws to limit number of children, etc.  So all in all people have children out of a personal desire.  The reason I say it's a paradox is because of out this selfish desire, becomes selfless love.  Those who are parents here wold most likely agree that after you have children, your entire life changes and your decisions/life choices center around your children.  Some parents forego their dreams, aspirations, careers, etc all for their kids.  It's about sacrifice.  That is truly the most loving thing a parent can really do for the kids, is to sacrifice their own desires and put the kids needs first.  

I understand your premises, but I think that would only apply to a fanatical form of religion to be honest.  I encourage my children to discover what they want, be who they are and I will help them and answer any questions best I know how.  I will give them guidelines to follow in my home, teach them respect and care for others, love and protect them like nothing else, and let them be their own person.  Belief in God is a one on one personal thing that each person makes for themself.  I don't shy away from my belief when the kids ask me and if they choose not to believe, that would not change my love for them one iota.  

You say there is so much pain and heartache, but is there not also love, wonder, amazement and joy?  Pain and heartache is not all there is.  I have experienced plenty of that in my life and very young, but overall life is an amazing joy to live.

While I truly appreciate this post for what it is, my question is this, if you believe that there is a judgement after this life that will determine where you and your family will spend eternity, one destination being paradise and one destination being punishment,  why would you not be fanatical about that?

I know this question isn't for me, but here is my reason:

Because this life is also important. And human life in this life is sacred. Even if your intentions are "good", killing an innocent child is still the most heinous act you can possibly commit. You don't do something horrendous and evil for a "good" cause. Which, ironically enough, is also the reason why abortion is wrong even in cases of a crisis pregnancy. 

(Also, as I said, I don't see Heaven & Hell as "destinations". But rather, as a state of being a person chooses to be in. Loving someone is also allowing them to have their own mind and their own free will. By killing a baby/child because you don't want them to make wrong decisions, you are not only taking away their life, but their free will as well. It's a heinous thing.)

[loganonekenobi]

Just some logical thought....I hope...

Our nature says that killing offspring is bad for continuation of species.

Much of the Xtian book seems like a life time set up so that people believe out of fear ie: we are all born of the same couple that disobeyed God, We are all born sinners so there is NO escape, life is short so you'dd better pick the right way of thinking, God can do what he wants evil or not but we had better not even THINK it, faith must prevail over logic OR ELSE!

My point is that when we apply the understanding of 10,000 years of trial and error of civilization the Bible falls apart at many points.

I give credit where it is due though and there are several things pointed out in the BIble, and other religious text, that are still just as valid today "do unto other.....don't go after some ones stuff or mate....don't kill....don't judge others...." and so on. However as i said many other text explain these things too so get the big moral head that the Bible is the only moral writing.

We know this and IMHO that is what the OP is pointing out.
It seems to me that what the OP did is a bit of roleplaying in the mind of a Xtian and used what seems to be total logic in the conclusion.

We as atheists have been asked CONSTANTLY, why be moral at all. Your logic is that without God we can't be now it seems that with the OP's logic that WITH God you can't be either.

As just plain humans though, we can be (moral) and for now our children live another day.

[Pyrrho]

Agree, it is sick man!
The sickest part is it's all an extrapolation of the bible!

All it means is that the barbaric goat shaggers who wrote the bible had very low morals in their day...
We have all evolved since then, except well, the bible?  It's stuck on ver 1.0

 The Bible never says parents should kill their children so they can go to heaven, only sick illogical people like rodvalue can claim such a ridiculous view.

GC

Yes, the Bible never tells parents to kill their children (except if they are disobedient [Deuteronomy 21:18-21], or if they strike either parent [Exodus 21:15], or if they curse either parent [Exodus 21:17], etc.).  However, IF it were true that children who died automatically went to heaven, and IF growing up they might go to heaven or they might go to hell, THEN killing them as children would be doing them a favor, because a chance to go to hell is a bad thing.  You agree that going to hell is bad, right?  Do you want your children to go to hell?  If not, and if children who were killed would automatically go to heaven, then killing them would make the most sense.

Of course, god might punish you for it, but a good parent will risk his or her own life to save the life of his or her child.  But in this case, we are discussing something more important than life; we are discussing immortal souls and what happens to them for eternity.

Now, of course, bad parents won't sacrifice themselves for their children, and so we can expect that bad parents will selfishly try to save themselves rather than do what is best for their children.  So bad parents in such a scenario would likely not kill their children and give them the opportunity to go to hell.

[rexbeccarox]

While I truly appreciate this post for what it is, my question is this, if you believe that there is a judgement after this life that will determine where you and your family will spend eternity, one destination being paradise and one destination being punishment,  why would you not be fanatical about that?

I know this question isn't for me, but here is my reason:

Because this life is also important. And human life in this life is sacred. Even if your intentions are "good", killing an innocent child is still the most heinous act you can possibly commit. You don't do something horrendous and evil for a "good" cause. Which, ironically enough, is also the reason why abortion is wrong even in cases of a crisis pregnancy. 

(Also, as I said, I don't see Heaven & Hell as "destinations". But rather, as a state of being a person chooses to be in. Loving someone is also allowing them to have their own mind and their own free will. By killing a baby/child because you don't want them to make wrong decisions, you are not only taking away their life, but their free will as well. It's a heinous thing.)

I had an abortion in the case of a crisis pregnancy; am I heinous?

[vorlon13]

Any person of faith who acknowledges the Bible is bound, IMO, to that books definition of life.

And God put it up front where it would be easy to find, and before most of his followers would get bored and stop reading.


I'd admonish folks with a problem accepting that to be honest with themselves and God, declare a schism, and move on in their own faith.

[Kingpin]

I know this question isn't for me, but here is my reason:

Because this life is also important. And human life in this life is sacred. Even if your intentions are "good", killing an innocent child is still the most heinous act you can possibly commit. You don't do something horrendous and evil for a "good" cause. Which, ironically enough, is also the reason why abortion is wrong even in cases of a crisis pregnancy. 

(Also, as I said, I don't see Heaven & Hell as "destinations". But rather, as a state of being a person chooses to be in. Loving someone is also allowing them to have their own mind and their own free will. By killing a baby/child because you don't want them to make wrong decisions, you are not only taking away their life, but their free will as well. It's a heinous thing.)

I had an abortion in the case of a crisis pregnancy; am I heinous?

No.  But that is my subjective opinion.

[rexbeccarox]

I had an abortion in the case of a crisis pregnancy; am I heinous?

No.  But that is my subjective opinion.

Thank you, King, but I'd like C_L to answer. I'm not surprised at yours

[Tartarus Sauce]

Ummmmm, KingPin for president?? 

Lol, no thanks, I find it difficult enough to run a household of seven.  

You've got the face of a politician though. Has anybody ever told you that?

[Longhorn]

What I find truly and gut wrenchingly heinous is forcing this child, among many others, to go through torture.

http://edition.cnn.com/2015/08/13/americ...ves-birth/

But that's just my 0.02.