Christian Persecution

[drfuzzy]

You guys are not paying attention to what I'm saying.  I think that what I refer to as the "tyranny of the majority" is not a good thing!  I'm saying that it happens.  It's been happening in  the US since the nation began.  The constitution is interpreted according to how the majority views it.  Why do you think that when the supreme court passes judgments on controversial issues, the vote is almost always divided up between the liberal and conservative judges?  That's why the political parties always fight to choose a judge who has a history of reflecting their views.  People have been denied their constitutional rights from the beginning because the powers to be either ignored or misinterpreted the constitution which was supposed to protect them in the first place.  Since they were a small minority nobody cared.  Christians have been the majority in the past and have often ignored minority rights because they had a small voice, even though their actions were to opposed to the constitution.  I believe that the same thing would happen to christians if they became a small minority.  I'm not rationalizing past behaviors, I'm just stating my opinion in answer to the questions I've been asked.   I think that you're seeing that I'm a christian and then using that impression to interpret what I'm saying instead of just reading what I wrote.

Ok, I just read through this thread again.  

My two-cents worth:  Although you have made some points that made me growl, Lek, you're still here.  You're discussing and engaging with us.  So kudos for that.  

It really is hard to tell from post to post whether you want the US to be a "Christian nation", and hope for a theocracy. (A lot of xtians that I know pray daily for Jesus to come and rule the world for 1000 years, so that's what I expect to hear from xtians.)  And yet, here, "tyranny of the majority" is not a good thing.    But - ok - so - what's the difference between that and majority rule?  

You list possible future persecution, such as not being able to wear a cross, to tell a friend you're a xtian, to preach on street corners, etc.  Well, most atheists wouldn't restrict your rights except for one: don't try to convert us.  That's it.  So yeah, that street corner thing, maybe. But most street preachers are batshit crazy anyway.  I have a street-preacher bingo game, where we sit, pass around tokens, and the board corners are for typical stuff they say, like "repent!", "you're going to hell", and stuff like that.  It's a lot of fun and the preachers hate it when we cheer and yell "bingo!".   But I digress . . .

I don't think Muslims are going to take over the US - they're too associated with extremism.  I don't think the xtians need to fear, there is still separation of state and religion.  Atheists are a generally peace-loving and studious bunch. We're all about respecting each other's rights because many of us still are not free to be openly atheist!    

You see the power of the christian church to dictate moral behavior for most of the population diminishing.  Well yes.  This does not mean an increase in crime or lack of moral behavior - the Scandinavian countries have proven that quite conclusively.   More than half of the population of most western european countries are atheist, and the christians still have all their freedoms.  So I don't think you need to worry about having your rights taken away.  Keep wearing your cross.  Put up inspirational posters at work.  I'm jealous, because I can't do that - I would be fired - my bosses are xtian.

[Lek]

Ok, I just read through this thread again.  

My two-cents worth:  Although you have made some points that made me growl, Lek, you're still here.  You're discussing and engaging with us.  So kudos for that.  

It really is hard to tell from post to post whether you want the US to be a "Christian nation", and hope for a theocracy. (A lot of xtians that I know pray daily for Jesus to come and rule the world for 1000 years, so that's what I expect to hear from xtians.)  And yet, here, "tyranny of the majority" is not a good thing.    But - ok - so - what's the difference between that and majority rule?  

You list possible future persecution, such as not being able to wear a cross, to tell a friend you're a xtian, to preach on street corners, etc.  Well, most atheists wouldn't restrict your rights except for one: don't try to convert us.  That's it.  So yeah, that street corner thing, maybe. But most street preachers are batshit crazy anyway.  I have a street-preacher bingo game, where we sit, pass around tokens, and the board corners are for typical stuff they say, like "repent!", "you're going to hell", and stuff like that.  It's a lot of fun and the preachers hate it when we cheer and yell "bingo!".   But I digress . . .

I don't think Muslims are going to take over the US - they're too associated with extremism.  I don't think the xtians need to fear, there is still separation of state and religion.  Atheists are a generally peace-loving and studious bunch. We're all about respecting each other's rights because many of us still are not free to be openly atheist!    

You see the power of the christian church to dictate moral behavior for most of the population diminishing.  Well yes.  This does not mean an increase in crime or lack of moral behavior - the Scandinavian countries have proven that quite conclusively.   More than half of the population of most western european countries are atheist, and the christians still have all their freedoms.  So I don't think you need to worry about having your rights taken away.  Keep wearing your cross.  Put up inspirational posters at work.  I'm jealous, because I can't do that - I would be fired - my bosses are xtian.

Thanks for really reading my posts drfuzzy. To clear things up about my thoughts - what I want is for the US is to be a nation of christians. Since we won't ever be a 100% nation of christians, I want it to be a nation where everyone, regardless of religion or non-religion is given equal rights. It has never been that way, but that's what I want. I want everyone to live together in love and mutual respect. I know it's idealistic, but that's what I'm working for. We won't always agree. We'll even disagree vehemently, but we still can love and respect one another. I'm not tremblingly afraid of persecution, but I see it as a distinct possibility in any society, just as other groups have been persecuted.

[Shining_Finger]

So you have used the wrong examples. Allowing same sex marriage doesn't concern you, as far as your rights go. It only is of concern to you, if you were to impose your views on others, since you are still free not to subscribe to it. What I mean is, you should be allowed to live your lives as you please. You, or any other group, shouldn't be allowed to impose your worldview on others.

Again you didn't read what I said.  I didn't mention the freedom not to think homosexuality is immoral, but rather the right to say it in public.  I gave an example of England where you can be put in jail for doing that.

In many European countries Holocaust denial is illegal too. 
Is that Tyranny of the Majority?

[Lek]

Again you didn't read what I said.  I didn't mention the freedom not to think homosexuality is immoral, but rather the right to say it in public.  I gave an example of England where you can be put in jail for doing that.

In many European countries Holocaust denial is illegal too. 
Is that Tyranny of the Majority?

I'm not sure. It might be, but I do feel that it's a bad law. It would definitely be an infringement on the freedoms guaranteed by the US constitution. I don't attribute every bad thing to the tyranny of the majority.

[dyresand]

In many European countries Holocaust denial is illegal too. 
Is that Tyranny of the Majority?

I'm not sure.  It might be, but I do feel that it's a bad law.  It would definitely be an infringement on the freedoms guaranteed by the US constitution.  I don't attribute every bad thing to the tyranny of the majority.

Not really in the EU it still is a touch subject because well... The post war WW2 mentality is still there in regions. And the fact being 
people who deny the holocaust are you know give or take are really anti semitic.

[robvalue]

@all: I wonder if some people consider America to be the propery of Christianity, and that things should only happen with its blessing.

You have to make your mind up whether you want to live in a secular nation or a theocracy. The second choice is dangerous, because of the assumption that it will be your religion that is running the show. All it takes is for numbers to swing another way and then you're under Muslim rule, or Pastafarian rule.

I firmly believe that most people who think they want to live in a theocracy would be screaming to be let out after five minutes if they had any idea what they were letting themselves in for.

For those sane enough to want things to be secular, here's a quick reality check: for everything you think Christians should be able to do, ask yourself if you'd accept Satanists doing the equivalent. If not, you're a steaming hypocrite.

As regards marriage, there are two very distinct and unrelated types of marriage. There is legal marriage, and there is a religious ceremony which makes you married "in the eyes of the lord" or whatever. There is no requirement for the two to be combined, and no one suggests that the second version be subject to any changes the churches don't want to make. But legal marriage has nothing to do with religion. And as such, religious beliefs should have no influence. It shouldn't stop secular laws being improved to remove discrimination. Are you're prepared for Satanists to add whatever clauses they want to marriage? Would you like that? No, didn't think so.

No one is making Christianity change its "marriages". If you don't like secular marriage, don't do it.

Oh, you want tax breaks now huh? You want legal security? Good luck getting those things in a theocracy. Christianity is a religion, not the religion.

One last point: I find it amusing that all the repressed homo/bisexuals come flying forward to oppose gay marriage, to try and make it look like they can't possibly be that way inclined themselves. They are actually achieving the opposite by highlighting their personal issues and insecurities.

[Thumpalumpacus]

Rob, the majority of Americans have already made up their minds, and are comfortable with secular institutions -- even most Christians.

The reason you might think otherwise is, I think, a matter of stupid folk tending to be louder. Smart folk work behind the scenes, actually vote, and file the lawsuits that are sometimes required to remind the rest of our Constitutional rights -- and limits.

The tide is certainly changing here, believe me. We're not where we need to be, but we're headed in the right direction. And as a plus, we don't practice genocide any more.

[robvalue]

I'm glad to hear that

I'm always careful to say that I'm talking about some Christians, and not all Christians. I should have made it clearer I wasn't talking about the majority. I can tell that most of them must have their heads screwed on for the % of Americans in favour of gay marriage to have risen well above 50. The minority I was addressing above may be smaller than I realized, which is good news!

You're right, empty vessels make the most noise. Our forum seems to attract mainly homophobes, for some reason. A few more generations and that level of brainwashing will hopefully be diluted to safe amounts.

[drfuzzy]

Ok, I just read through this thread again.  

My two-cents worth:  Although you have made some points that made me growl, Lek, you're still here.  You're discussing and engaging with us.  So kudos for that.  

It really is hard to tell from post to post whether you want the US to be a "Christian nation", and hope for a theocracy. (A lot of xtians that I know pray daily for Jesus to come and rule the world for 1000 years, so that's what I expect to hear from xtians.)  And yet, here, "tyranny of the majority" is not a good thing.    But - ok - so - what's the difference between that and majority rule?  

You list possible future persecution, such as not being able to wear a cross, to tell a friend you're a xtian, to preach on street corners, etc.  Well, most atheists wouldn't restrict your rights except for one: don't try to convert us.  That's it.  So yeah, that street corner thing, maybe. But most street preachers are batshit crazy anyway.  I have a street-preacher bingo game, where we sit, pass around tokens, and the board corners are for typical stuff they say, like "repent!", "you're going to hell", and stuff like that.  It's a lot of fun and the preachers hate it when we cheer and yell "bingo!".   But I digress . . .

I don't think Muslims are going to take over the US - they're too associated with extremism.  I don't think the xtians need to fear, there is still separation of state and religion.  Atheists are a generally peace-loving and studious bunch. We're all about respecting each other's rights because many of us still are not free to be openly atheist!    

You see the power of the christian church to dictate moral behavior for most of the population diminishing.  Well yes.  This does not mean an increase in crime or lack of moral behavior - the Scandinavian countries have proven that quite conclusively.   More than half of the population of most western european countries are atheist, and the christians still have all their freedoms.  So I don't think you need to worry about having your rights taken away.  Keep wearing your cross.  Put up inspirational posters at work.  I'm jealous, because I can't do that - I would be fired - my bosses are xtian.

Thanks for really reading my posts drfuzzy.  To clear things up about my thoughts - what I want is for the US is to be a nation of christians.  Since we won't ever be a 100% nation of christians, I want it to be a nation where everyone, regardless of religion or non-religion is given equal rights.  It has never been that way, but that's what I want.  I want everyone to live together in love and mutual respect.  I know it's idealistic, but that's what I'm working for.  We won't always agree.  We'll even disagree vehemently, but we still can love and respect one another.  I'm not tremblingly afraid of persecution, but I see it as a distinct possibility in any society, just as other groups have been persecuted.

In green.  On these points, my Christian brother from another mother, we are on the very same team.  Happy Thursday.    

[SteelCurtain]

Thanks for really reading my posts drfuzzy. To clear things up about my thoughts - what I want is for the US is to be a nation of christians. Since we won't ever be a 100% nation of christians, I want it to be a nation where everyone, regardless of religion or non-religion is given equal rights. It has never been that way, but that's what I want. I want everyone to live together in love and mutual respect. I know it's idealistic, but that's what I'm working for. We won't always agree. We'll even disagree vehemently, but we still can love and respect one another. I'm not tremblingly afraid of persecution, but I see it as a distinct possibility in any society, just as other groups have been persecuted.

Except for teh gayz, amirite?