Biblical Christianity 101, a study of the book of Romans

[jenny1972]

Fun! looks like someone wants a lesson in context!!!

jesus:
Among the sheep and goats who both call Jesus Lord, the group who serves Jesus by feeding the brethren in need, clothing them, and giving them water, goes to heaven. The other group who calls Jesus Lord but who fails to provide such charity are, as a consequence, sent to "eternal fire." (Parable of the Sheep and the Goats. Matt. 25:32 et seq.). A faith that ignores the poor brethren is "dead" and "cannot save." (James 2:14-17.) "Every tree therefore that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire." (Matt. 7:19.)
paul:
Anyone who "shall call" on the name of the Lord shall be saved. (Romans 10:13.) This is permanent, and no condition subsequent can be put on this that you must be charitable or have fruit thereafter.

Otherwise, it is salvation by works. (Romans 4:4, 14; Eph. 2:8-9.) Hence, it cannot be true that if the goats, in fact, ever once called on the name of the Lord that they should be sent to hell. James' statement that paraphrases the principle of Matthew 25:32 et seq. contradicts Paul, and we are not to believe even an angel from heaven if he should contradict Paul. (Gal. 1:8.)

*  as you can see jesus said salvation is through works and repenting to God , but paul claimed that salvation was through faith in jesus  *

jesus:
Salvation is based on God forgiving your sin. If you do not forgive others after you receive forgiveness, God will revoke your forgiveness and send you to hell to be tormented. (Matt. 18:28-35; cf. Matt. 6:12.)

paul:
Salvation is not contingent on your forgiving others. Salvation only has one condition: a one-time faith. (Romans 4:4.) If you ever once had faith (Romans 10:9), you are no longer able to be condemned. (Romans 8:1.)

jesus: To have eternal life, follow the Ten Commandments, deny yourself (i.e., repent and do works worthy of repentance) and then follow Jesus. If you give up fathers, mothers, and brothers for Jesus, deny yourself, take up your cross, and "follow Me," you "shall have eternal life." (Matthew 19:27-29; Matthew 10:37-39; John 12:25-26.)

In Luke 18:18-22 Jesus says: a ruler asked him, "Good teacher, what must I do to inherit eternal life?" "Why do you call me good?" Jesus answered. "No one is good—except God alone. You know the commandments: 'Do not commit adultery, do not murder, do not steal, do not give false testimony, honor your father and mother.'""All these I have kept since I was a boy," he said.When Jesus heard this, he said to him, "You still lack one thing. Sell everything you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me." (through works)

paul:
To have eternal life, say with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe He is resurrected. (Rom. 10:9.) Do not add any work. "Now to him that worketh, the reward is not reckoned as of grace, but as of debt."(Rom. 4:4.) If salvation depends on keeping the Law, then salvation by faith is made void. "f they that are of the law are heirs, faith is made void..." (Rom.4:14.) In Romans 3:20, Paul says: “For no one is put right in God’s sight by doing what the Law requires; what the Law does is to make man know he sinned.” (through faith)

yes im sure if you work really really hard you can interpret any inconsistency in the bible and convince yourself that theres no contradiction well everyone else can see the obvious contradictions between what jesus said about salvation and what paul said about salvation you are just willfully blind to the contradictions because to dont want to admit to yourself it doesnt add up and its contradictory - its a defense mechanism called denial you have a lot invested in this ( oh and notice that jesus called himself "son of man" ?) thats another think different about paul and jesus . jesus saw himself as a fully human messiah an heir of king David and paul seen jesus as divine im sure jesus would have disagreed very much with that idea .

mat 19:27 Peter said to him, “We left everything we had and followed you. So what will we have?”
28 Jesus said to them, “When the time of the new world comes, the Son of [i]Man will sit on his great and glorious throne. And I can promise that you who followed me will sit on twelve thrones, and you will judge the twelve tribes of Israel. 29 Everyone who has left houses, brothers, sisters, father, mother, children, or farms to follow me will get much more than they left. And they will have eternal life. 30 Many people who are first now will be last in the future. And many who are last now will be first in the future.

[/i]so to have eternal life we have to leave houses, brothers, sisters, father, mother, children, or farms to follow jesus ? thats not what paul said ,paul said you just have to have faith in jesus dont have to do anything at all no farm selling  or anything else . jesus said follow the law actually jesus told different things to different people about how to earn salvation

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On one occasion an expert in the law stood up to test Jesus. "Teacher," he asked, "what must I do to inherit eternal life?" "What is written in the Law?" he replied. "How do you read it?"He answered: " 'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind'; and, 'Love your neighbor as yourself.'""You have answered correctly," Jesus replied. "Do this and you will live."


Is that true? If you do this, will you have eternal life? Actually it is not true. In Luke 18:18-22 Jesus says:

A certain ruler asked him, "Good teacher, what must I do to inherit eternal life?" "Why do you call me good?" Jesus answered. "No one is good—except God alone. You know the commandments: 'Do not commit adultery, do not murder, do not steal, do not give false testimony, honor your father and mother.'""All these I have kept since I was a boy," he said.When Jesus heard this, he said to him, "You still lack one thing. Sell everything you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me."

The answers in Luke 10 and Luke 18 are totally different.

Then in John 6:53-58 we find an additional requirement:

   Jesus said to them, "I tell you the truth, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you. Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day. For my flesh is real food and my blood is real drink. Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me, and I in him. Just as the living Father sent me and I live because of the Father, so the one who feeds on me will live because of me. This is the bread that came down from heaven. Your forefathers ate manna and died, but he who feeds on this bread will live forever."

it totally contradicts what Jesus just told the two guys in Luke 10 and Luke 18. And what about Matthew 18:2-3 ?

   He called a little child and had him stand among them. And [Jesus] said: "I tell you the truth, unless you change and become like little children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven."

But is it true? If you "become like little children", do you get to go to heaven? No, actually not. In reality you have to be "born again" in order to see the kingdom of God. In John 3:3-8 Jesus says:

   "I tell you the truth, no one can see the kingdom of God unless he is born again." "How can a man be born when he is old?" Nicodemus asked. "Surely he cannot enter a second time into his mother's womb to be born!"Jesus answered, "I tell you the truth, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water and the Spirit. Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit. You should not be surprised at my saying, 'You must be born again.' The wind blows wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit."

But let's ignore the contradiction for a moment. Is this true? If we become like little children... in fact, if we regress all the way to infants by being "born again" of water and the Spirit, do we get to go to heaven? No... Jesus is wrong again. Because in Matthew 5:17-20 Jesus says this:

   "Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. Anyone who breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven.

so here Jesus is saying that our righteousness, and our adherence to the laws of the old testament, must exceed that of the Pharisees in order to enter the kingdom of heaven.

And then there is John 3:16 contradicting jesus' instructions and adheres to paulist ideology :

   "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life."

[Drich]

Define what it means to full Fill the LAW or the Prophets?

[Jen-Knee (how forrest Gump says it)=Quote]
jesus came to fulfil the prophesy of messiah in Davids line , as he was related to David through his father joseph  mary was from the house of levi if his father was God and not joseph he couldnt have fulfilled the prophesy of being messiah ........[/quote] So to you... Full Filling the LAW, and the Prophets means only full filling prophesy??? If this were the case why didn't Jesus say He came to 'full fill prophesy.", instead of mentioning the law as well?

Yes Jesus did full Prophesy even only being the son of Marry (see the law/rules concerning inheritance and a 'legal son') as Joseph Himself was a 'legal son.' But Full Fillment of the Law goes beyond the Full Fillment of prophesy. In context To fulfill is to complete. The law was not complete. it identified sin/morality, managed social life, and ritual/worship. However the Law also provided atonement. The atonement aspect of the law was not complete because it required perpetual ritual sacrifice, from basic ritual cleanliness to, blessings to forgivness of sin. 1/3 of the law was dedicated to defining the different sacrifices needed and how to perform them inorder to be seen as 'clean' before God.

This is the part of the Law Jesus came to fulfill. Meaning we now under the New covenant of Christ do not have to make these sacrifices as the OT jews did. Even now the NT Jews do not makes the same sacrificial provisions they did in the OT. What does that mean for sin? Nothing, as Paul points out as well as Christ points out. The Law still identifies Sin (romans 7) and what Jesus said in mat 5 (not one stroke of the pen will fade away.)

However now with Christ as a perpetual sacrifice for sin, Righteousness ceases to be founded on just sticking to the law. (That's good because Jesus just made it impossible to follow the law because he now included 'thought crime' as being considered to be the same as the physical sin. Also keep in mind that animal sacrifice would not cover all sin, it only went so far then in the extreme cases the sinner had to die, murder now Hate are to be considered the same sin as well as Adultry and lust, both of which were death penality offenses/sacrifice of animals could not redeem the sinner) But Again Jesus in fulfilling the law now makes the laws of attonement complete. that means Jesus not an animal dies for all sin one and for all. This makes 'righteousness' not an act (following the Law) but a gift.

Because again, when Christ fulfilled the Law He not only made Himself the perfect sin sacrifice he extended the range of the law to also include our nearly uncontrollable base thoughts to be equal to the greatest most heinous sins of his day. sins that required death of the sinner. this means Everyone deserves death, IF they are judged only by the Moral law. However Christ by completing the laws of atonement also extends God perfect grace, rather the grace provided by the blood of animals. In doing so our righteousness is no longer defined by our ablity to keep the whole law, (because again we would all deserve death when Christ extended the reach of the moral law to include thought) That means righteousness then becomes a gift that we can not earn, but out of love and respect are willing to work as a result of.

look at my later posts jesus vs. paul what jesus said and what paul said that directly contradicted jesus . jesus said he did not come to do away with the law and paul said jesus did do away with the law in the new covenent . jesus said nothing about any "new covenent " jesus always preached turning away from sin and living according to the law .....not salvation through belief in him - paul preached salvation through faith in jesus. jesus didnt speak of salvation through faith in him .

18 I assure you that nothing will disappear from the law until heaven and earth are gone. The law will not lose even the smallest letter or the smallest part of a letter until it is finished.

Then just before He died what were His last words? "It is finished."

Jesus Taught the Law because up until He died their was only the Law. His death ushered in "The New covenant." The Law remains. Paul in romans 7 tells us what the Law remains for.. however we are no longer bound by the law to define our righteousness. Because again the Law according to Christ own works extends past what we have full control over. This means everyone is doomed to Hell, OR righteousness is no longer defined by the law. Even though the law still exists for the purpose of identifying sin (according to Paul in rom 7)

[jenny1972]

so jesus himself did not speak of any kind of "new covenent" or that he would be a sacrifice for the sins of humanity in fact jesus told a caananite woman he only came for the jews not for the gentiles and he didnt say anything about dying for jew sins either . he said he was the messiah the jews were not expecting any half God half man hybrid creature but a descendent of david fully human and neither did jesus see himself as God or part God (the trinity was a foreign concept to jesus he repeatedly said that God is ONE never 3 in 1)   , it was invented by paul and other people later , jesus had no awareness of it just like i said .

" I assure you that nothing will disappear from the law until heaven and earth are gone. The law will not lose even the smallest letter or the smallest part of a letter until it is finished.

Then just before He died what were His last words? "It is finished."

dont you think that jesus meant by "finished" as the heaven and earth being gone . when jesus died on the cross both heaven and earth remained right? I assure you that nothing will disappear from the law until heaven and earth are gone  . well both still exist right ?

[Minimalist]

Then just before He died what were His last words? "It is finished."

Not according to the other shitheads.

46 Then Jesus, calling out with a loud voice, said, “Father, into your hands I commit my spirit!” And having said this he breathed his last.

Luke  23

Matthew 27:46
Around the ninth hour, Jesus shouted in a loud voice, saying "Eli Eli lama sabachthani?" which is, "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?"

Mark 15:34
And at the ninth hour, Jesus shouted in a loud voice, "Eloi Eloi lama sabachthani?" which is translated, "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?"

Such poorly written shit that you can't even get the finale right!

[rexbeccarox]

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if " Everything Christ taught works with everything Paul taught and vise versa " then why do you say "we must reconcile all of the teachings between all the different teachers/books"

Because on the surface if one only looks at the English they see contradictions/or they only see one side of a principle.

if its clear that there is no contradiction and if truely everything that christ taught works with everything paul taught why the need for apologetics to explain to people how if you just try real hard and interpret in a certain way its not really a contradiction .

Again, no. Just because a contradiction is perceived does not mean one exists. Contradictions only exist if one is foolish enough to think that their translation in English was the original language the bible was written in. Because only then would your take in the English could be taken at face value.

The problem with ALL translations is their are words, Phrases and Idoims that do not directly translate, so the translator must decide to translate literally, or to give an interpretation or to mix and to what degree. Most bibles are strongly literal in their translations which does not account for the intended meaning of a passage in the original koine Greek. so we must go back to the original greek codacees that the bibles were translated from and look at the actual words used.

also 'if the Holy Spirit eliminates the middle men and puts God in direct contact with everyone' , where does jesus come in ?

The Holy Spirit could not come unless you were made clean from your sins. Jesus makes you clean so the Holy Spirit may dewell in you.

according to most christian theologians jesus , the son of God , not the Holy Spirit enables direct contact to God . i understand different denominations believe different things and everyone interprets differently but ive never heard of a christian who believes jesus is not the connection to God ...

Jesus is the WAY to God the Father as "I am the Way (to God) The Truth (of God) and (the source of eternal) Life, No one comes to the Father, But by me."

The Holy Spirit is the Endewellment of God, it is what Jesus died to Provide.

Jesus Says The Law Continues, But Paul Says No it doesnt...

Jesus's View on the Law:
Jesus emphasized the validity of the Law up through the passing away of Heaven and Earth, thus confirming its inspiration and ongoing validity. In Matthew 5:17-19 we read:(17) Think not that I came to destroy the Law [of Moses] or the prophets: I came not to destroy, but to fulfil. (18) For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass away from the Law, till all things be accomplished [i.e., all things predicted appear on the stage of history]. (19) Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. (ASV)Compare Luke 16:17 similarly says at a different time than the Sermon on the Mount -- meaning Jesus repeated the same point twice: " It is easier for heaven and earth to disappear than for the least stroke of a pen to drop out of the Law. (Luke 16:16-17 NIV.) and so Jesus can never be accused of seducing any Christian from following the Law (although paul can). Jesus cannot be a false prophet under Deuteronomy 13:5 (false prophet is anyone who has miracles and wonders but seduces you from following the Law). Jesus said the Law remained valid until the Heavens and Earth pass away. This passing of heaven and earth occurs at the end of the Millennium. This is 1000 years after Christ's Second Coming, according to the Book of Revelation.

"Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. Anyone who breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven."
THAT ^  turns into 'jesus has done away with the Law and we are in a new covenant' ( jesus even spoke about false teachers who would say this very thing )

Paul's View on the Law :
Paul is blunt in Ephesians 2:15, Colossians 2:14, 2 Cor. 3:11-17, Romans 7:1-3 et seq, and Galatians 3:19 et seq. The Law is "abolished," "done away with," "nailed to a tree," "has faded away,' and was "only ordained by angels...who are no gods." If we were to cite Paul's condemnations of the Law in one string, the point is self-evident that Paul abrogated the Law for everyone. See Eph. 2:15 ("setting aside in his flesh the law with its commands and regulations"); Col. 2:14 ("having blotted out the bond written in ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us: and he hath taken it out that way, nailing it to the cross;") 2 Cor. 3:14 ("old covenant"); Gal. 5:1 ("yoke of bondage"); Rom. 10:4 ("Christ is the end of the law" opposite of what jesus said ); 2 Cor. 3:7 ("law of death"); Gal. 5:1 ("entangles"); Col. 2:14-17 ("a shadow"); Rom. 3:27 ("law of works"); Rom. 4:15 ("works wrath"); 2 Cor. 3:9 (ministration of condemnation); Gal. 2:16 ("cannot justify"); Gal. 3:21 cannot give life  again opposite of what jesus says); Col. 2:14 ("wiped out" exaleipsas); Finally, in Romans 7:1-6, Paul claims when Jesus died, the husband died and this dissolved the Law's bonds between the husband (God of Sinai) and wife (God's people). This "made the law dead to us." (Romans 7:4.)

...So?

In What Jesus said, what does it mean to full fill? "I came to full fill the law." or have you not read that far? For this to be a contradiction you can only have read "I did not come to abolish the Law." So how does 'the word πληρόω plēróō, "Full fill" contradict or reconcile the teachings of Paul with Christ in your estimation?
https://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lex...4137&t=KJV

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Wait... we're supposed to be taking your lessons on idioms, translations and context seriously when you can't even grasp the English language- your first language? You're kidding, right?

Dunning Kruger has reached a new level.

"Full fill"????

Fuck me.

[robvalue]

What about all the poor saps trying to interpret the perfect message of god that didn't happen upon this forum and this particular thread?

They're just getting it wrong, presumably.

[GrandizerII]

Wait... we're supposed to be taking your lessons on idioms, translations and context seriously when you can't even grasp the English language- your first language? You're kidding, right?

Dunning Kruger has reached a new level.

"Full fill"????

Fuck me.

Must be hard work for Drich to master so many languages!

[Minimalist]

He should work on English.

[jenny1972]

What about all the poor saps trying to interpret the perfect message of god that didn't happen upon this forum and this particular thread?

They're just getting it wrong, presumably.

yes thats quite a claim that the current bibles that billions of people have are completely corrupted from the latin and greek translations , wouldnt that call into question everything if its all been corrupted he should at least send a memo to the catholic church , unless they already know its corrupted because they corrupted it hmmm . well tell the protestants lol accident or intentional time to reexamine the bible how it was put together  and how what exists has changed so dramatically that what we have now contradicts itself and drich if you have this information shouldnt you be telling everyone about it ??

[robvalue]

If it's at all corrupted, and not the perfect word of god, then every sentence stands or falls on its own merit.