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November 17, 2015 at 9:05 am (This post was last modified: November 17, 2015 at 9:13 am by Brian37.)
(November 17, 2015 at 7:45 am)AtlasS33 Wrote:
(November 16, 2015 at 8:18 am)SofaKingHigh Wrote:
Atlas, we've jousted on here before, but for the main part, I agree with most fo what you have said here......apart from this. I can assure you that the IS jihadists are more than capable of this type of attack.....the planning and coordination are being well over played in the media.....8 gunman, in a capital city, strapped with suicide belts, would be disappointed with the death toll. I say this with a heavy heart and in no way meant to disrespect aanyone here, but this attack has all the hallmarks of a Jihadist attack.
3 suicide bombers outside Stad-de-Paris with no casualties and 80,000 people inside? Come on, this was amateurish.
You question them getting their rifles past security? Which security? The non-existent security on the borders? Or the "security" on the door at the Bataclan? We're talking Friday night bouncers here, unarmed and on a measly wage. Think about it.
You keep asking about the "security?" I'm not entirely sure what you are expecting? The streets covered in armed police and Bomb disposal units at every corner?
The questions should not be directed at the forces on the ground, for what they were, they should be directed at the intelligence services. A ball was dropped, big time... there is no way an attack like this remains totally radio silent in the staging week before the attack...no way.
Playing the blame game is pure deflection at this point though......those cowardly fucks are the only ones to blames, if there is a God, may he fu(k them in the ass for all eternity.
My experience with Jihadists comes from where I live; I live in the Middle East. I'm very close to the turmoil of Syria and Iraq.
I actually expect something like that at an international concert; at least a metal detector at the door.
What we saw in Paris is not what to be expected from a country "facing a global threat and fighting a war"; a country which was targeted before in the "Charlie Hebdo" incident.
I wouldn't say every corner; but the stadium and the concert; at least; that's not just for ISIS; that's for other lunatics who might commit something. We''re speaking Holland & Merkal. I expect a lot. Though I never visited Europe, I don't know how things are there.
In the Middle East, security gets so tight you don't even get to scratch. I thought it was the same outside. And hence the low capabilities of Middle Eastern countries.
Though I indeed blame the intelligence agencies too; but not for "not doing their job", but actually for doing it so nicely.
My belief SofaKingHigh, is that ISIS is funded and even supported by many players in the international theater. Since the war on terror began, the war economy went sky-high, and saved many countries from going broke because of the economical crisis (which was expected a very long time ago btw).
ISIS came after 2008. What it simply did, is that it enriched a lot of countries that used them as an excuse to sell more arms. They even used them to smuggle oil in cheap prices (i.e stealing Syria's oil), and recently the increased their brutaities to force Syrians to flee to some countries in Europe (i.e provide a lot of cheap working hands that would work no matter what). All what ISIS did, was enough to delay the upcoming economical fall..read about it; it's predicted, 2008 was only the beginning. There will be other economical crashes.
I live in the Middle East. ISIS is not serious. A lot of Muslims hate its smell because of the killing. To be with them, you need to have a high sense of blood loving and sadism. Even if a Muslim "fanatic"; he/she doesn't want to see somebody behead somebody else and put their head on their bodies like a horror movie.
The command of ISIS is intelligence agencies from around the world; main suspects are the CIA & Mossad.
The foot soldiers, are psychopaths, gangsters, sometimes agents, and indeed : MUSLIM FANATICS. But why do we forget the Muslims who turned crazy after America or France or Nato took a piece of them in the previous wars ? one pound of flesh for each drop of oil. Drone attacks ?
For example, check the similiarties between ISIS and Saudi Arabia : on of the biggest allies of the west.
Then check the Mossad cells that speak arabic and practice severe brutalization in combat (Gaza war is an example).
Then check how the CIA supported Jihadists against the soviets.
I'm not blaming. But it's an evil world. Though the whole game is about the economy.
Quote:I'm not blaming. But it's an evil world. Though the whole game is about the economy.
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OK, That simplicity by accepting it, could if more humans would cut through all the needlessly complicated bullshit would and could create more global stability.
We really are not different than any other species, outside our ability to create complicated labels that really are nothing but excuses to get at resources. We give them names like religion, politics, business models, race, nationality. But it really is nothing more than the act of forming a group to survive.
Understanding the complexities IS IMPORTANT, but you cannot cut through that crap unless you start from the simple reality that we are all the same species and we are all trying to survive. And the simple fact is, the more stable humans are the less likely they are to get violent.
Yes it is an evil world, and the worst evil right now that is distracting our species from what you rightfully just said, is the stupid fucking idea of a "chosen people". It is the worst idea humans have ever concocted. It is sucking money away from better uses humanity could be using to solve issues of poverty and pollution. Yes, it is the economy.
Atlas, we've jousted on here before, but for the main part, I agree with most fo what you have said here......apart from this. I can assure you that the IS jihadists are more than capable of this type of attack.....the planning and coordination are being well over played in the media.....8 gunman, in a capital city, strapped with suicide belts, would be disappointed with the death toll. I say this with a heavy heart and in no way meant to disrespect aanyone here, but this attack has all the hallmarks of a Jihadist attack.
3 suicide bombers outside Stad-de-Paris with no casualties and 80,000 people inside? Come on, this was amateurish.
You question them getting their rifles past security? Which security? The non-existent security on the borders? Or the "security" on the door at the Bataclan? We're talking Friday night bouncers here, unarmed and on a measly wage. Think about it.
You keep asking about the "security?" I'm not entirely sure what you are expecting? The streets covered in armed police and Bomb disposal units at every corner?
The questions should not be directed at the forces on the ground, for what they were, they should be directed at the intelligence services. A ball was dropped, big time... there is no way an attack like this remains totally radio silent in the staging week before the attack...no way.
Playing the blame game is pure deflection at this point though......those cowardly fucks are the only ones to blames, if there is a God, may he fu(k them in the ass for all eternity.
My experience with Jihadists comes from where I live; I live in the Middle East. I'm very close to the turmoil of Syria and Iraq.
I actually expect something like that at an international concert; at least a metal detector at the door.
What we saw in Paris is not what to be expected from a country "facing a global threat and fighting a war"; a country which was targeted before in the "Charlie Hebdo" incident.
I wouldn't say every corner; but the stadium and the concert; at least; that's not just for ISIS; that's for other lunatics who might commit something. We''re speaking Holland & Merkal. I expect a lot. Though I never visited Europe, I don't know how things are there.
In the Middle East, security gets so tight you don't even get to scratch. I thought it was the same outside. And hence the low capabilities of Middle Eastern countries.
Though I indeed blame the intelligence agencies too; but not for "not doing their job", but actually for doing it so nicely.
My belief SofaKingHigh, is that ISIS is funded and even supported by many players in the international theater. Since the war on terror began, the war economy went sky-high, and saved many countries from going broke because of the economical crisis (which was expected a very long time ago btw).
ISIS came after 2008. What it simply did, is that it enriched a lot of countries that used them as an excuse to sell more arms. They even used them to smuggle oil in cheap prices (i.e stealing Syria's oil), and recently the increased their brutaities to force Syrians to flee to some countries in Europe (i.e provide a lot of cheap working hands that would work no matter what). All what ISIS did, was enough to delay the upcoming economical fall..read about it; it's predicted, 2008 was only the beginning. There will be other economical crashes.
I live in the Middle East. ISIS is not serious. A lot of Muslims hate its smell because of the killing. To be with them, you need to have a high sense of blood loving and sadism. Even if a Muslim "fanatic"; he/she doesn't want to see somebody behead somebody else and put their head on their bodies like a horror movie.
The command of ISIS is intelligence agencies from around the world; main suspects are the CIA & Mossad.
The foot soldiers, are psychopaths, gangsters, sometimes agents, and indeed : MUSLIM FANATICS. But why do we forget the Muslims who turned crazy after America or France or Nato took a piece of them in the previous wars ? one pound of flesh for each drop of oil. Drone attacks ?
For example, check the similiarties between ISIS and Saudi Arabia : on of the biggest allies of the west.
Then check the Mossad cells that speak arabic and practice severe brutalization in combat (Gaza war is an example).
Then check how the CIA supported Jihadists against the soviets.
I'm not blaming. But it's an evil world. Though the whole game is about the economy.
I served in Basra in the second war and also did a tour of Afghanistan, so I'm not totally uneducated here Atlas.
Let me ask you.......what do you expect a "metal detector at the door" would have done to stop 4 gunmen armed with Assault rifles? Honestly?? They're not going to stop and turn around thinking they're brilliant plan had been thwarted now would they?
We're not in the Middles East either by the way, we're in Europe. This is an unprecedented attack, meaning an attack like it had never happened before. This was a Friday night, young people going for a night out, in a relatively peaceful and secure city.........you expect the same type of security you see in the middle east? I mean, seriously??
Charlie Hebdo was a totally different incident, in terms of planning, scope and execution. Hebdo was specifically targeted because of a supposed slur on Islam. What happened on Friday night was a coordinated, multi-pronged attack on the civilian population, planned and orchestrated from the outside.
I have already said I agree with a lot of what you've said on the political situation, but the criticism of teh security measures on the ground are unfounded in my opinion.
Quote:Marine Le Pen’s Anti-Islam Message Gains Influence in France
And, does anyone stop to consider that this is the ultimate goal of these terrorist attacks? Inciting hatred is a good way to get more followers. People being persecuted are easy recruiting material.
November 17, 2015 at 8:28 pm (This post was last modified: November 17, 2015 at 8:29 pm by The Grand Nudger.)
I don't know whether to be happy or frustrated, that people think the CIA is such a badass boogeyman on the world scene, commanding ISIS....lol. Is this image a relic of the cold war (undeserved even then)?
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And, does anyone stop to consider that this is the ultimate goal of these terrorist attacks? Inciting hatred is a good way to get more followers. People being persecuted are easy recruiting material.
Does it matter? People are going to react the way they always react. ISIS has managed to get the US, France and now Russia bombing their asses. The Russians are now going after ISIS full bore and we are sort of thinking that keeping Assad around may not be such a bad idea. The French are just pissed and who can blame them.
As far as long-term strategies go ISIS' recent actions have been detrimental to their longevity. The Kurds have retaken Sinjar and cut the road to Mosul. One of these days maybe even the fucking Iraqis will grow some balls and move into Ramadi...but I'm not holding my breath waiting for that one.
In all honesty I can see them trying to sneak some operatives out in the wave of refugees just in the interest of diversification because the shit is going to hit fan around Raaqa for quite some time.
(November 17, 2015 at 8:39 pm)Minimalist Wrote: Does it matter?
It matters very much. There's that old saying of know thy enemy. That's what Bush never considered and that's what's still not considered. So, going Gung Ho without a thourough analysis is probably contraproductive.
And I repeat, don't take radicals for fools, just because they are radicals. They may be nutters, but that doesn't say, they're unable to develop strategies.
Quote:So, going Gung Ho without a thourough analysis is probably contraproductive.
But we aren't going "gung ho." At least not while Obama is around. We're dropping some bombs on some really shitty people who frankly deserve every one of them.
If you want to see "gung-ho" wait until a republicunt gets elected. Baghdad Redux because that's all they know.
(November 16, 2015 at 10:02 pm)Wyrd of Gawd Wrote: I think all of the crocodile tears over the Paris massacre is asinine. We are at war. We have been at war for decades. There are no innocent victims. Everyone is on one side or the other. We kill the enemy and destroy their countries. France has been bombing in Syria for a long time, contributing to the exodus into Europe. So when a handful of the enemy counter attack with their limited means and cause mayhem and havoc we start bleating like scared sheep.
This war is expected to last 100 years. People on both sides will die. Misery will touch everyone. Deal with it.
What the fuck? Skip the nationality, skip the race and religion issues. When a individual, or group of people get hurt, they have an emotional reaction to that assault. Nobody should call the act unique, but it is nuts to expect humans not to react to trauma.
Agreeing that humans can and do fight, agreeing that there is plenty of blame to go around does not make the theocratic oppressive ideas far too much of the East is held hostage by, better than the secular west. Nobody should claim the west is perfect either. But that is fucking absurd to say French have no right to be pissed. You fuck with my family I'd get pissed too. Anyone would.
I'd say whatever response we have should not involve the same xenophobia or mob rule mentality, but all sides are NOT equal on this.
"Shit happens" yea. Humans do this, yea. It is the downside of our species. But that doesn't mean humans cant our shouldn't have emotions in response to human cruelty.
According to this site by September, 2015, the coalition forces had done over 6,000 air strikes, manned and unmanned, and dropped about 20,000 bombs on Syria. They have destroyed the country. http://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/thread1084769/pg1
Now this is war. People get killed and maimed. Stuff gets destroyed. But to expect people to endure such an onslaught and not to retaliate is asinine even if they are classified as terrorists.
I thought Assad made a mistake by not putting bounties on foreign fighters. Even so the majority of his troops have remained loyal and continue to fight against all of the foreign-funded and armed factions trying to overthrow him. That seems to be the major difference between the Syrians and the Iraqis, who give up and get shot in the head.
Now the war is expanding to Europe. Maybe they will be able to contain the damage but no one should expect to be exempt from pain and suffering. When people express remorse and stop fucking with people in other lands their tears will have more value. If someone drops 20,000 bombs on you would you be a nice guy?
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