Attack at Planned Parenthood Clinic

[Joods]

Damn.

[God of Mr. Hanky]

It is not yet known if this shooting at Planned Parenthood was motivated by anti abortion sentiments, or if it was just a random attack. It resulted in the death of 3 people, 1 of them a cop. Being against abortion myself I just want to reiterate that pro life does not end after birth. The point of being pro life is to believe that ALL life is sacred. What this man did was heinous, and if he is anti abortion, hypocritical on top of that. Robert Lewis Dear, you are not on my side.

Condolences to the families.

http://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2...do-springs

The facts on what was attacked notwithstanding, the "pro-life" movement is Christian, and the Christian doctrines all dangerously poo-poo the significance and preciousness of life on this earth, in favor of a later one which is hopelessly unlikely at best. 

Your life is here for sure, as is mine, and no less with millions of men and women much like you. We must be somewhere to experience what we do, and the only reliable accounts for human life existing anywhere is right on this earth, and it is very, very temporary. If you really care about other people, and of making this world a better place when you leave it than it was when you found it, then you really should not recognize the self-asserted "rights" of any people to lord their will over others on their personal, life-altering choices which involve their own bodies. As a man, I understand that clearly enough, and that is hardly unusual. Therefore you have to be one very twisted excuse for a member of the human species to be a woman, and be lacking enough in empathy with your own gender to make such decisions for other members of the same against their will! You do this all for an ego-gratifying fantasy which is no more real than any unicorn myth!

Your "pro-life" position stops lives in progress from happening by destroying dreams, forcing women into dependency for the best years of their lives because they haven't time or funds to learn better skills for raising healthy and happy children. For the so-called "sin" of being what a woman is by nature, you hypocritically punish the victims of an unsympathetic society instead of work to improve that society. You force children into this world before it is ready for them, thereby perpetuating the evil cycle of misery for children who need parents, children of broken homes when wedlock marriages fail as expected, children growing up alone in a world which has cruelly stuck on them the Christianity-imposed label "bastard". You promote crime by promoting the misery which breeds it, and if the victims had ghosts which could point to the cause, they would be pointing at you, Ms. Pro-Life. "Pro-Life" is in reality "Pro-Poverty", "Pro-Misery", "Pro-Crime", and "Pro-Death"!

[Jackalope]

You'll never hear me say abortion is fine. I don't like it, and I wouldn't choose one for any reason other than health of the fetus/baby or mother.

You will hear me say that it shouldn't be up to anyone else but the woman who is pregnant.

I generally steer pretty clear of this debate, but this sums up my take on it as well.

Same here. This is one of those topics I will only rarely offer an opinion on. Suffice it to say that I am not fond of the procedure, but the decision, as far as I am concerned, is one between a woman and her doctor, and it's not one I'm interested in judging anyone for. Nestor did a fine job outlining a secular case for being simultaneously pro-choice as well as being in opposition to the practice of abortion and I've no desire to bore you all by repeating any of his points.

[Catholic_Lady]

I don't agree with the argument that a fetus has no right to be in his/her mom's womb. If he/she was conceived there, that is exactly where they are supposed to be. That is how nature was designed to work, that is how it was all intended to be.

World's worst argument to bring to an atheist forum. 

Let me clarify. I was not referring to God at all when I said that lol. I was simply referring to the reality of the world we live in and how we, all of us, come into existence. How do we not have the right to be in our mother's wombs when that is what we evolved to do? That is what humanity's existance depends on. And our bodies evolved specifically to cater to that. You might as well say we don't have the right to use up oxygen from the Earth's air or something lol. That is the whole evolutionary purpose of why we have that entire part of our bodies. A fetus is supposed to be there. So yes, it has the right to be there. That is the natural order of our world and of the continuation of the human species. It's not like some big bad baby just barges forcefully into some random chick's body without "asking for permission" lol. He is a completely innocent bystander of natural order, as we all were too when we were conceived and lived in our mom's wombs for 9 months. 

Anyway, I don't mean to harp on this, and I hate for any discussion to be going in circles. But I felt like I had to repeat myself again in order to clarify that this argument has nothing to do with God.   
 

I know I'm just reiterating what Tib already said, but talking like a baby has no business being in his/her mom's womb just sounds silly to me, so I figured I'd comment.

But no one is saying a mother's baby has no business being in its mom's womb.  We're just saying no rapist's baby has any right to her womb.  Which baby's are the mother's?  Ask her.  If she chooses not to incubate her attackers DNA that is her right to decline.

But people here aren't making the argument that abortion should only be okay in cases of rape lol. The argument being made is that abortion should always be okay. Through all 9 months of pregnancy, no matter what reason. Because a women has the bodily autonomy to abort her offspring, and that bodily autonomy does not go away for any reason at any stage of the pregnancy. That is the current argument being made, and the one I am replying to. Since abortion due to rape is very rare because pregnancy due to rape is rare, I am not assuming that we are talking about rape cases every time we say abortion.

[Catholic_Lady]

CM: It's funny you should mention parasites. I was thinking that the fetus is also technically a parasite.

A human fetus (or any animal's fetus for that matter) is not, in any scientific or medical sense, a parasite. Words have meanings, and "fetus" does not fit the bill.

[Catholic_Lady]

Again, the circumstances and nature surrounding a parasite and an unborn human are what make all the difference to me.

Are you're saying that you think it would be permissible for me to kill the parasite?

Yes, it would be permissible for you to kill a parasite or tapeworm. I don't know why that means it should also be ok to kill a human fetus. In no other argument do we use our treatment of animals (let alone of parasites) as a standard for how we should treat humans. It's ok to kill a tapeworm living in your intestines just as it is ok to kill a fish you're going to eat. The same cannot be said about humans, for either count. 

...Unless of course, you are saying that a human fetus is not human. Again, if that's the case then we would need to take this discussion all the way back to the question of a fetuses' humanity. It's pointless to talk about this if we haven't settled that step yet. We are way ahead of ourselves.

[Catholic_Lady]

That's what I thought. Ok, I was just making sure you were being consistent because I have seen some people use bodily autonomy as a reason why abortion is fine but then say it shouldn't be allowed after a certain point. Which makes no sense, because bodily autonomy applies for all 9 months of pregnancy. So if a person believes it is ok to abort an unborn at 5 weeks, then aborting him/her at 9 months shouldn't be any different with the bodily autonomy argument.

You'll never hear me say abortion is fine. I don't like it, and I wouldn't choose one for any reason other than health of the fetus/baby or mother.

You will hear me say that it shouldn't be up to anyone else but the woman who is pregnant.

Yeah, when I say "fine" I mean fine with it being legal. I don't mean that you guys think it's good or anything.

[Whateverist]

I don't really get it. Why do you think anyone and everyone should have access to your womb to grow their DNA? If you can't sign off on that we sure aren't likely to agree on anything else regarding abortion.

The conversation about whether we think it should be permissible for a woman to change her mind regarding a pregnancy she contributed to willingly would be the more common situation. Here I side with free will. I think we have to take the high road and hope others will too. I don't think we should legislate that they do so. If your god can entrust such decisions to our fallible natures it is the least we can do for each other.

[Aroura]

World's worst argument to bring to an atheist forum. 

Let me clarify. I was not referring to God at all when I said that lol. I was simply referring to the reality of the world we live in and how we, all of us, come into existence. How do we not have the right to be in our mother's wombs when that is what we evolved to do? That is what humanity's existance depends on. And our bodies evolved specifically to cater to that. You might as well say we don't have the right to use up oxygen from the Earth's air or something lol. That is the whole evolutionary purpose of why we have that entire part of our bodies. A fetus is supposed to be there. So yes, it has the right to be there. That is the natural order of our world and of the continuation of the human species. It's not like some big bad baby just barges forcefully into some random chick's body without "asking for permission" lol. He is a completely innocent bystander of natural order, as we all were too when we were conceived and lived in our mom's wombs for 9 months. 

Anyway, I don't mean to harp on this, and I hate for any discussion to be going in circles. But I felt like I had to repeat myself again in order to clarify that this argument has nothing to do with God.   
 

But no one is saying a mother's baby has no business being in its mom's womb.  We're just saying no rapist's baby has any right to her womb.  Which baby's are the mother's?  Ask her.  If she chooses not to incubate her attackers DNA that is her right to decline.

But people here aren't making the argument that abortion should only be okay in cases of rape lol. The argument being made is that abortion should always be okay. Through all 9 months of pregnancy, no matter what reason. Because a women has the bodily autonomy to abort her offspring, and that bodily autonomy does not go away for any reason at any stage of the pregnancy. That is the current argument being made, and the one I am replying to. Since abortion due to rape is very rare because pregnancy due to rape is rare, I am not assuming that we are talking about rape cases every time we say abortion.

Actually, different people are making vastly different arguments in this thread.  Don't lump us all together just because you personally, or one other person in this thread, takes one extreme position or the other.

Most people are not extremists on the issue of abortion.  Very few take the position that it is always or never ok.  You have taken one extreme position of never, but most people in this thread (and most people in America, according to survey's btw) have only said it is sometimes acceptable, and there is a wide range of opinions on when and why that might be.

The vast majority of Americans do not view this as a black/white, either/or position.  Those who do are extremists on this topic, and make up less than 20% of the population.

[Catholic_Lady]

I don't really get it.  Why do you think anyone and everyone should have access to your womb to grow their DNA?  If you can't sign off on that we sure aren't likely to agree on anything else regarding abortion.  

I don't...