US Muslims struggle with condemnation

[Mister Agenda]

What you're missing is that you're grouping all Muslims together.  When you get to seeing that, we can perhaps make headway in this discussion.

I'm not nor have I ever argued that Islam is a race. That is a strawman you're beating there. You should learn the difference between a comparison and an equivalence.

Yes, I am grouping all Muslims together, as a group which follows the same holy book, and I need not apologize for that!

Like Quakers and Baptists and Catholics are all the same, eh?

[Mister Agenda]

Did CNN come and interview you?  Because that double-standard is the point.

If a group of Catholics started terrorizing the world for the past year, I would want CNN to bring in a priest or bishop or whatever to set the record straight that killing people is against Church teaching and that we don't stand for that.

What about the Quakers? They're Christians too. Catholics are just a kind of Christian. Maybe CNN should bring in a Quaker from Oklahoma to set the record straight that Catholics killing people in Belgium is not what Quakers are about.

[paulpablo]

If you were part of the same organization that white person claimed to be a member of you might be asked those sorts of questions by people wanting to know what your view of the groups beliefs were.

Remember this is a religion not a race, you weren't raised to be a white man and there's no white man belief system, so it's slightly different circumstances.

But say if you were to go ahead with that analogy, I'm sure throughout American history it's very common, especially these days, to have a vast vast VAST amount of white people who will put themselves at risk, sometimes even their lives at risk, for the sake of racial equality in America and for black civil rights and so on.

But in western countries you do get Muslims saying "These aren't real Muslims." but I don't know if there's a level of total outrage.  I don't know if many Muslims are going over there to fight ISIS, I think more of them are going over to abroad to fight FOR ISIS rather than against them.

I agree that not all Muslims should have to make a public apology but some genuine non forced condemnation goes a long way I think, on the one hand it is relieving to see a lot of Muslims condemning ISIS.  On the other hand it's scary that all you have to do is interpret a book a different way and you could end up joining ISIS.

A positive example was in the news today involving a knife attack and a Muslim bystander shouted out something like "You ain't muslim bruv, you're an embarrassment." And that's slightly encouraging, it wasn't forced it was just a reaction.

A negative example would be when someone I know was talking to a Muslim who I also know, saying to him something like "They don't like homosexuality in Islam do they? They can be executed in some of those Islamic places."  And the Muslim who is usually talkative about most topics just flatly said "Yeh."  And It was just a feeling I got but the silence after that was a bit awkward.

I'm not saying that proves he's homophobic, but if that was me and someone said "Hey Paul, a lot of atheists are left wing communists."  The very first thing I would do is explain I don't have much interest in Communism and I don't really politically swing on either left wing or right wing.  And I don't even condemn Communists but I'd be quick to point out false associations with me being an atheist just out of the principle of it.

Pretty much all the people fighting ISIS on the ground are Muslims. Just sayin'.

If that's true then that's encouraging, but Isis isn't the only Islamic terrorist group

[God of Mr. Hanky]

Pretty much all the people fighting ISIS on the ground are Muslims. Just sayin'.

If that's true then that's encouraging

So we know that when it comes to political control vs. religious ideas and your country is on the border, we know what comes first.

Q. What stops the rest of the Middle East from gladly joining ISIS?
A. Political control.

Q. What most motivates the evangelical Xtians of America in their attempts at influencing our government and lording their legislation over others who still care about their Constitutional rights? 
A. Political control. It certainly isn't the integrity of their religion, much less their own moral integrity!

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Yes, I am grouping all Muslims together, as a group which follows the same holy book, and I need not apologize for that!

Like Quakers and Baptists and Catholics are all the same, eh?

The point is that we all have better reason for knowing they aren't all the same. Because the second one in any such Xtian group does something evil with official or secretive sectarian support, the others will get up and cry foul, as a way of distancing themselves from the stink. I'm an atheist, and I also believe organizational atheist leaders should do the same when atheists kill out of hatred. So then, why won't Muslim leaders do this? It's because they'd rather give us the finger, and stupid Western journalists enable them to get away with it!

[Mister Agenda]

Q. What stops the rest of the Middle East from gladly joining ISIS?
A. Self Preservation. Hardly anyone really wants to live like that.

The problem with the second question and answer is that Muslims are not as homogenous as 'Evangelical Christians of America'. There are countries already where their equivalent of Evangelical Christians are already in charge. Other countries resist doing the same thing largely because most of their Muslims don't want it.

Muslim leaders DO this every freaking time. Use your Google finger.

[abaris]

Yes, I am grouping all Muslims together, as a group which follows the same holy book, and I need not apologize for that!

Nobody has to apologize for their ignorance. I've yet to see an ignorant person not trying to mount the high horse. Kind of comes with the territory, since a narrow horizon provides for little perspective.

[Catholic_Lady]

If a group of Catholics started terrorizing the world for the past year, I would want CNN to bring in a priest or bishop or whatever to set the record straight that killing people is against Church teaching and that we don't stand for that.

What about the Quakers? They're Christians too. Catholics are just a kind of Christian. Maybe CNN should bring in a Quaker from Oklahoma to set the record straight that Catholics killing people in Belgium is not what Quakers are about.

Um, what?

[CapnAwesome]

I actually wonder how much responsibility does one hold for ideas - If I'm a communist, am I supposed to apologize because "stalin"? "Hey guys, I'm sorry, but I just love worker's rights!". ??

I think a communist should at the least admit to the downsides of their philosophy. Islam even more, since the downsides of revering a slaving warlord as a perfect moral human is way more obvious than the unintended consequences of communism.

[The Grand Nudger]

If a group of Catholics started terrorizing the world by killing thousands of people for the past year, I would want CNN to bring in a priest or bishop or whatever to set the record straight that killing people is against Church teaching and that we don't stand for that.

Sure.....you could wait for CNN, or just use google.  Where you under the impression that there were no such groups..or that priests and bishops hadn't spoken out against them, as they do, as muslims do? You're in the same position, telling us that you don't stand for that, while others plainly and vocally do. You have the insiders perspective, what else do you think might work, apart from imams and muslims speaking out..which works no better for them than it would for you or catholicism?

[CapnAwesome]

The last time I checked, racial groups were of very natural origin.

... but racist groups aren't.

The fact that I'm not asked to answer for the behavior of white-supremacist groups, while random Muslims are expected to answer for the acts of other Muslims who have a different version of their religion -- that fact is the point.  It's a double standard.

If my son were a white-supremacist, I would denounce him (and any atrocity he might commit). But some random asshole up in Idaho? He has to answer for himself. And I have the luxury of holding that attitude, because it is not expected of me to answer for him.

You want an American Muslim to condemn acts of terror?  They do it all the time. They have to -- it is expected of them.

There a big difference between a white supremacist and you. You probably don't consider Hitler to be a good and moral person. Every Muslims presumably considers Muhammad to be a good and moral person. Yes, I know he's probably just average for a warlord of the time but the fact that Muslims worldwide, today, say that he's a perfect example for humanity to live by. That is a reality to deal with, Isis and Muslims around the world share a philosophical base in a way that a random white person and a white supremacist just don't. Isis is following the example of Muhammad by conquering territory and enslaving people for a world wide religious empire. That's what Muhammad called for and that is the real issue that Muslims who condemn Isis need to and will never address.