A conversation with Robvalue about religion.

[Mystic]

One thing is how Quran is written, it's written in a way, that it's up to us to reflect over it's signs and indications of God and his way.

One argument I made of Deism, is that perhaps God would rather want us to reflect more rather then blindly follow. I feel however we come to blindly follow society or a group we attach ourselves and form our opinions around people who don't know and don't have vision of the truth and light, more then really think. At best, we follow our own opinions that we have thought about a lot, yet at the same time, it seems we maybe of much blindness and misguidance, for all we know.

If Quran was excessive in spelling everything out, I would agree it's as if God wants us to just blindly accept.

But the Quran said one it's purposes it has been revealed for, is so people reflect. So people think. 

In fact, to souls that are yet asleep, Mohammad was commanded per Quran to call to one thing. 

1. Rise up for God
1. Then to reflect

In fact, to rise up for God is possible for Atheists as well. For example not knowing he exists, but saying, I really want to know whether he exists or not, sincerely, for the sake of this being if he exists. Then to reflect. 

In fact, my experience with the Quran is that it helps you perfect reflection if you come to it with a certain attitude. Surahs bring beauty to reflection and vision of the mind and soul, in ways, other writings don't perfect reflection.

However with many people, it just increases them in injustice, like itself says "it doesn't increase the unjust but injustice". 

You don't need to believe in it for the door of reflection to open up. Many of it's majestic wonders opened up to me through reflection when I was a Deist or unsure of whether God sent Messengers or not.

The book is written in a way, that teases our intellect, till it begins to reflect, ponder, and then images upon images of it's chapters begin to open up.

[robvalue]

Yes, society does shape us, sure. But we can ultimately find our own path. You seem to have very little confidence in man's ability to do so without external guidance. I'm very happy with how I'm doing, again considering what a joke my health is.

If you find helpful wisdom in the Quran, or any book, that's good. I can't understand how you find it quite as amazing as you do, but I'm happy for you anyway.

The rest of what you said is again in a world I have no experience of.

[Mystic]

I have faith some humans can find the path towards God without external guidance in form of revelations. I don't have faith in the majority of humans would do that.

Majority don't even it do it with a revealed revelation from God, a book from him, and guides/teachers/authorities appointed by him.

I believe we are in need of God's help. And we need to help God's cause as well, and be helpers of God, till, the catalyst order he brought to the world through his chosen ones, manifests to humanity, and we unite on the rope of God and are Guided to him by a just honorable leader appointed by Him to lead and guide us upon the straight path.

[Brian37]

Mystic, seriously, we are not attacking Islam to single it out. You really do need to understand that every religion argues their books too. You are not making different arguments, you are merely stuck on one flavor of god belief. ALL religions now and in the past, are all products of human imagination.

It really will be ok if you give up on defending that book. There is no Allah who will get revenge on you. Just like you reject it when Christians threaten you with hell for not buying the God of the bible. It was understandable back then that people bought claims of Jesus and the Jewish Yahweh and Allah, humans didn't know any better back then. We do know better now. WE PROMISE nothing bad will happen to you if you consider you got it wrong and eventually accept you got it wrong. These Ex Muslims were once where you were at.

https://www.facebook.com/exmna/?fref=ts

https://www.facebook.com/exmuslims/?fref=ts

https://www.facebook.com/IRANAAM/?fref=ts

https://www.facebook.com/Syrian-Atheists...0/?fref=ts

Many of those are just as detailed in their knowledge of Islam as you are.

So is this former Muslim Ayaan Hirsi Ali who lived in both North Africa and Saudi Arabia.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ayaan_Hirsi_Ali

[robvalue]

We need to help god's cause? Why? Is he lacking in power or resources?

I am reading what you write MK, but I'm afraid most of it is making no sense to me at all.

[Mystic]

He designed the world so that who want to maybe of his helpers, and would help us in return, and reward our help and raises us to ranks and create beauty through that in our souls and majesty.

Part of the design of the world in allowing dark forces to lead people astray, is so there is battle, a fight, for guiding God's servants and helping his cause.

Of course God could of been a nanny protective type Creator which makes sure no evil or harm comes to all of us, but, there is a majesty in saying, "you can take it, you can do it, and you must do it, embrace my name, embrace my sword of honor, embrace the light of my face, take my help and call out for more of it from me or you will lose yourself in the battle against your enemies, and you must help the truthful ones and be with them for their cause is my cause, and be a mercy and favor to the humanity and I will increase my mercy and favor to you."

[Aoi Magi]

He designed the world so that who want to maybe of his helpers, and would help us in return, and reward our help and raises us to ranks and create beauty through that in our souls and majesty.

Part of the design of the world in allowing dark forces to lead people astray, is so there is battle, a fight, for guiding God's servants and helping his cause.

Of course God could of been a nanny protective type Creator which makes sure no evil or harm comes to all of us, but, there is a majesty in saying, "you can take it, you can do it, and you must do it, embrace my name, embrace my sword of honor, embrace the light of my face, take my help and call out for more of it from me or you will lose yourself in the battle against your enemies, and you must help the truthful ones and be with them for their cause is my cause, and be a mercy and favor to the humanity and I will increase my mercy and favor to you."

1) You can be sure of this how?
2) Why would a supreme being need to create it this way?

[Mystic]

He designed the world so that who want to maybe of his helpers, and would help us in return, and reward our help and raises us to ranks and create beauty through that in our souls and majesty.

Part of the design of the world in allowing dark forces to lead people astray, is so there is battle, a fight, for guiding God's servants and helping his cause.

Of course God could of been a nanny protective type Creator which makes sure no evil or harm comes to all of us, but, there is a majesty in saying, "you can take it, you can do it, and you must do it, embrace my name, embrace my sword of honor, embrace the light of my face, take my help and call out for more of it from me or you will lose yourself in the battle against your enemies, and you must help the truthful ones and be with them for their cause is my cause, and be a mercy and favor to the humanity and I will increase my mercy and favor to you."

1) You can be sure of this how?
2) Why would a supreme being need to create it this way?

You posed a good question. There is many ways to be certain of this and many reasons I am certain of this, I will elaborate later.

I promised yesterday I would explain why I go on these Atheist forums. I will post that, then reply to your inquiry.

Of course, I will not be attempting to prove to you that I know this or convince you, but simply explain my position on this issue so we come to mutual understanding of each other.

[Aoi Magi]

1) You can be sure of this how?
2) Why would a supreme being need to create it this way?

You posed a good question. There is many ways to be certain of this and many reasons I am certain of this, I will elaborate later.

I promised yesterday I would explain why I go on these Atheist forums. I will post that, then reply to your inquiry.

Of course, I will not be attempting to prove to you that I know this or convince you, but simply explain my position on this issue so we come to mutual understanding of each other.

MK, it's not about convincing me, but in order to understand your thoughts I'll need to know the reasoning behind your conclusions,

[robvalue]

Right well, God sounds like an utter prick I'm afraid. You're not winning me over to his side.

Watching us struggle, suffer and try to figure out bizarre twisted messages is his idea of entertainment?