If you were ever a theist...

[Simon Moon]

https://youtu.be/KiU5ht5W_lk

I got to see her do this live at the Center for Inquiry West in LA when she was still working in this.

It was close to the final form. It was great.

[*Deidre*]

Maybe and maybe not. If you look back to the Paleolithic time period, there are researchers who believe that religion (for want of a better word) took shape back then in the form of Shamanism. If that made society 'better off' who knows, but maybe mankind's sheer desire to wonder and be open to all it does not know and could never know, is where some of these ideas and rituals stemmed from.

Well their are examples where a tribe or civilization benefited from a religion.   One example that comes to mind was a tribe (I forget where but can look it up when I get home) that had certain rituals related to agriculture.  When the Europeans introduced them to the calendar and use that for determining when you plant and harvest they lost their crops to insects and flooding.  Religion has also been used to unite people into a common cause in many instances.

Now I agree that religions are appealing because they explain things we don't know as it's natural to fear the unknown.  That explains why people followed but not really how they originate as someone has to fabricate them as I suspect they were not all given sacred script.  Some are mentally unbalanced and may believe (jonestown comes to mind) however the majority I theorize were created for a specific goal such as gain prominence in the tribe or attempt to manipulate the tribe into adopting a certain practice

Yea, that's pretty cool. Some would say (and I might have once said this as a skeptic) that hope doesn't require religion, so people 'adopt' religions, and such but deep down...in their heart of hearts, they are capable of doing it all on their own. As a believer again, it doesn't bother me to give thanks to a god. After my experiences over the past few months, I mean real experiences that changed my life, my heart, etc...that's why I'm thankful. It could all be coincidence, though, as a skeptic might think. lol I find these conversations fascinating, because we all have the capacity to be a great skeptic...or a great believer. Isn't that intetersting? 

[*Deidre*]

Wow, thank you...I never knew your ''story'' all this time. ''Intuitive grasp of reality'' ...these insights are not lost on me, so you all know. It is very interesting to me to read of what led people to faith, even if it was indoctrination (like I had been through in childhood, but didn't return to it now, due to that, although, it might seem that way lol).

Do you at all believe that life can be a mixture of objective reason towards reality AND intuition? I mean, I know intuition (let's call it in the case, spiritual intuition) is subjective.

Intuition is very powerful in that it can 'see' things that are in perpetual shadow.   But it's also very fickle in that it doesn't explain the connection between intuition and reality; it leaves you at the mercy of time to explain its unfolding.  In that sense, one can't directly compare reason and intuition.  The one is reliable but limited, the other not so limited but also fundamentally unreliable (in the sense that we can't understand the truth as it is, rather than how our subjectivity colors it).  The problem is not in using both, for most often they don't compete in what they tell you.  The problem is in determining which one to trust on subjects at which they are at odds.  I lost the option to choose 'intuition' at one point where they conflicted and had no choice but to triumph reason.  For most things however, such a choice is seldom necessary.  Except in the case of religion, where it seems intuition speaks in terms of shadow that never clearly reveal themselves, and reason is perpetually trying to draw us back into the light.

Neither way on their own seems wholly satisfying.

This is so good, it really is. You know, I have mainly atheist friends in my offline life, and one of them said one day recently, that he thought maybe life should be a blend of belief and fact. Belief based on some loose facts and a leap of faith. My fiance is a Christian, but was an atheist for a long time, and he's sort of a ''loose'' Christian, not ultra-practicing, etc. But, even he was like...really? lol There were some wine and spirits involved in this conversation that day, but suffice to say that we all wonder. I think where the danger comes in, is when people dictate to others what to believe. Many Christians are that way. Intuition for me, can't also be yours. You have to find your own, if you so desire to seek it, you know? 

Having identified as an atheist at one time, really helped me. The joy I have in believing again, comes also from a time when I didn't believe. And didn't care. It is in that freedom to choose either path, that we find meaning to life, I guess. Neither way on their own seems wholly satisfying, as you put it. I like that a lot.

[*Deidre*]

https://youtu.be/KiU5ht5W_lk

I got to see her do this live at the Center for Inquiry West in LA when she was still working in this.

It was close to the final form. It was great.

I'll have to check this out.

[*Deidre*]

I was, but never a devout one. It never played any major role in my life, apaert from some childish (as in very little) believes, without caring much about theology or actual scripture.

It was a very long road to not believing. I would say, from the age of 8 to the age of 27, maybe 30. It started with constantly asking questions. As in asking myself questions. The tales the priests told didn't make any sense and were revolting at times. Such as, as I mentioned in different threads, that god would take what's most dearest to us, if we sin. So, still a child, I viewed Jesus and God as two different personallities. God, the evil one, Jesus, the good one.

Especially my father, who was a technician, took great pains in interesting me in the world, it's wonders and it's history. So, at a very young age, we started to visit museums. Technical as well as natural. I loved it and, on a side note, in Vienna, we have a rather large collection of dinosaur remains´at the museum of natural history. My father explained to me, they were millions of years old and although I couldn't wrap my head around millions of years at the time, the lesson stuck.

Later on, at our equivalent of high school, I never questioned what our science and biology teachers told us about the world and I started to question scripture even more. It was more or less out of the windows, when I made my degree. But I wasn't entirely ready to give up yet. It took another decade, and funnily enough, it happened at a catholic site. There's a place in the woods, where I live. I used to go there, when I wanted to reflect and to be alone. It's a crossroads display and I watched the imagery and thought, that's all too simplistic. That was back in 1990 and that was the time when I left christianity for good. But I still wasn't ready to live totallly unguided and so I took to deism. I even meddled with some wiccans. Most of my lady friends consider themselves witches, but my conclusion, based on what I knew about the world and it's history, was that of a totally neutral entity, being behind it all. But a total neutral entity doesn't need worship, since it doesn't care one way or the other.

So, I left that one behind too. To this day, I haven't ruled out that total neutral entity, since I can't prove it's absence. But I'm well aware, that I, as so many others, am just filling the gaps of what I don't understand. But that's also the reason why it still reads agnostic in my sig.

I like this, thank you for sharing. So honest and real, it's true...I mean, maybe we all are agnostic at the end of the day. Agnostic is a place of knowledge while atheism is a place of belief. Seems the same, but it's really not. If anything, I don't cling to any religion per se, although I consider myself following Christianity in the sense that I believe in what Christ taught, but still not relegated to one set religion. I find myself identifying more as a spiritual person, with Christian undertones. There is a lot of the Bible that is illogical, and a lot of what priests, pastors, etc say that just leaves one confused, because they could just be shooting from the hip, and interpreting things as they wish. That's also a turn off for many with faith, because many feel that it's all a man made set of doctrine, at the end of the day...and it gains 'power' by mankind blurting out 'God did it.'

Your journey was long, indeed...I hope you are happy where you landed 

[Natachan]

If you were ever a theist/believer, what led you to no longer believe? Not looking to preach, that’s not my thing and it’s against rules anyway, but just curious. I remember my own journey over the past few years with it all, and just thought it’d be interesting to hear your ‘stories’ if you were once believers before identifying as an atheist. 

Short answer: I saw no positive reason to continue believing and as such could not justify a belief in God.

Longer answer: when I first went to college I studied history. I took courses in archeology and anthropology. When looking into the history of the bible in the times the events were said to occur there was silence. Utter silence. So a disconnect formed. I knew how history was studied, and how it was established. And I also believed that the bible was true. But the history I learned through established scholarship could not exist in the same way and time as biblical history.

So I simultaneously believed these two things that could not be reconciled. But I hated this conflict. I decided I had to be honest with myself. So I sat down and thought it out. Did I accept the bible stories and throw out everything I knew about history and epistemology, or would I throw out the the bible stories? I have to be consistent.

In order to be consistent I had to accept that I didn't buy the whole God thing.

[Reforged]

If you were ever a theist/believer, what led you to no longer believe? Not looking to preach, that’s not my thing and it’s against rules anyway, but just curious. I remember my own journey over the past few years with it all, and just thought it’d be interesting to hear your ‘stories’ if you were once believers before identifying as an atheist. 

My mind was in a constant state of turmoil until I actually read the Bible when I was thirteen or fourteen. I went through the whole literal/metaphorical/fiction dance till I acknowledged that I had been lied to and had my entire worldview corrupted from birth. I was incredibly lost, I didn't even really know what atheism was. I wouldn't find out for another two years after I left high school. I went through a buddhist/spiritualist phase. 
When I was between sixteen and seventeen I finally had spare time on my hands so through the wonders of the internet I learned about debaters and such. The first I came across was Christopher Hitchens. His wit, his callous charm, incredible clarity and most of all; grasp of facts. Actual solid, testable facts. No bullshit mystique. Either he knew or he didn't and he would admit when he didn't. Took me aback. I would often find the childish thoughts I had about spiritualism spill out of the mouths of the opposition and laugh alittle. Like it was some kind of magic trick. I've grown to love debates, I appreciate them as a means of stripping away the fiction and leaving behind the bare bones. I also adore the kind of... theatrical dueling behind it. A trap here, a parry there. Its very entertaining and the coup de graces are very satisfying.
I began to see spiritualism for the clear play on fear and ignorance it is. Buddhism I found to simply be a more polished version of every other religion when I looked past its sheen. Christianity only had afew thousand years to get its PR campaign in order. Buddhism however has had more time to get rid of its less... enlightened of dogmas. A more refined mind virus. I looked at the other religions to give them a fair shake, did my research. All failed the test. This was the first time I really acknowledged Atheism as an option. It was the only one that made sense so, begrudgingly, I accepted my life had been a lie. That if theres one thing thats close to certainty its that none of us will make it out alive. 

That filled me with concern, fear, depression. For a while. I mean I repeated the same lie to myself everyone does at that point "Well at least you leave behind memories, thats a kind of immortality." Clear bullshit obviously, it never particularly washed with me. I mean memories fade pretty fast in the scheme of things and who cares about "ripples"? Yes yes, good for your relatives and friends. What about *you*? You're gone. Thats all there is to it. No words make that better, its just a reality. 
So what do we do in this time? I haven't had a clue about that for years. I still don't know really. I have no plan or massive endgame. Now all I feel is a pull. A desperate urge to travel, to keep moving, to keep running from one place to the next and feel the sea breeze against my face every second I can. It consumes every facet of me, has for the past month. Its only gotten stronger. Its not spiritual and its not some other worldly force. 
Its a part of me, telling me to live as fast as I can while I can. To be a blur, part of the chaos. A speck washed along a sea of possibility, making a desperate dash across it before it dries up. Thats still fear but I think its a good kind of fear, I think its that pull which keeps us alive instead of simply existing.

[MTL]

I was raised Baptist, in a strict, devout home.

I could not avoid the conclusion that Religion is far too full, far too often, of unholy things,
for me to ever be able to believe that it serves a Holy being.

The good things do NOT offset the bad things.

I also see how much the religions have in common with each other,
yet they all ultimately dismiss each other as heresy,
each asserting their way is the only right way

...that's a big red flag.

The only belief structure that stands out to me as remotely logical is Deism.

Believing in God,

...yet acknowledging that religious DOGMA is the unnecessary, unfounded, dangerous, arrogant and highly flawed human practice
of placing parameters onto that God,
and therefore questioning the legitimacy of all so-called Holy Writs, so-called Prophets, so-called Saviours,
and so-called concepts of Sin.

If I could conclusively say that I believed in God, then I'd be a Deist.

I'd reject all religious dogma as man-made, arrogant Heresy...because it claims to speak for God.

I don't really have any problem with Deism.

Simple belief in God,
without any Dogma or Religious bullshit,
is like a snake defanged,
or a skunk with it's scent glands removed.

it's more or less harmless.
But asking people to believe that one book or another speaks for god,
or that God needs Prophets to speak to mankind...that is the stinky, dangerous part.


(However, I can't personally even conclusively say I belief or don't believe,
so I am Agnostic).

[*Deidre*]

If you were ever a theist/believer, what led you to no longer believe? Not looking to preach, that’s not my thing and it’s against rules anyway, but just curious. I remember my own journey over the past few years with it all, and just thought it’d be interesting to hear your ‘stories’ if you were once believers before identifying as an atheist. 

Short answer: I saw no positive reason to continue believing and as such could not justify a belief in God.

Longer answer: when I first went to college I studied history. I took courses in archeology and anthropology. When looking into the history of the bible in the times the events were said to occur there was silence. Utter silence. So a disconnect formed. I knew how history was studied, and how it was established. And I also believed that the bible was true. But the history I learned through established scholarship could not exist in the same way and time as biblical history.

So I simultaneously believed these two things that could not be reconciled. But I hated this conflict. I decided I had to be honest with myself. So I sat down and thought it out. Did I accept the bible stories and throw out everything I knew about history and epistemology, or would I throw out the the bible stories? I have to be consistent.

In order to be consistent I had to accept that I didn't buy the whole God thing.

Actually, some Bible history is true, it can be traced to potentially actual events, but I know what you're talking about. Yes, very interesting path you've taken. So fascinating how everyone came to identify with atheism, no two stories remotely alike. When I left Christianity and belief of a deity in general, it had a lot to do with that disconnect you speak of, that all I had been taught about my faith simply wasn't true. But, coming back to faith...I view the Bible differently, albeit not as a text book but as a spiritual book, and much of it is based on allegory. Appreciate your story here, do you feel that secular views and faith can't coexist? That at some point, someone must make a choice about which 'world view' to let go of? I think they can coexist.

[*Deidre*]

If you were ever a theist/believer, what led you to no longer believe? Not looking to preach, that’s not my thing and it’s against rules anyway, but just curious. I remember my own journey over the past few years with it all, and just thought it’d be interesting to hear your ‘stories’ if you were once believers before identifying as an atheist. 

My mind was in a constant state of turmoil until I actually read the Bible when I was thirteen or fourteen. I went through the whole literal/metaphorical/fiction dance till I acknowledged that I had been lied to and had my entire worldview corrupted from birth. I was incredibly lost, I didn't even really know what atheism was. I wouldn't find out for another two years after I left high school. I went through a buddhist/spiritualist phase. 
When I was between sixteen and seventeen I finally had spare time on my hands so through the wonders of the internet I learned about debaters and such. The first I came across was Christopher Hitchens. His wit, his callous charm, incredible clarity and most of all; grasp of facts. Actual solid, testable facts. No bullshit mystique. Either he knew or he didn't and he would admit when he didn't. Took me aback. I would often find the childish thoughts I had about spiritualism spill out of the mouths of the opposition and laugh alittle. Like it was some kind of magic trick. I've grown to love debates, I appreciate them as a means of stripping away the fiction and leaving behind the bare bones. I also adore the kind of... theatrical dueling behind it. A trap here, a parry there. Its very entertaining and the coup de graces are very satisfying.
I began to see spiritualism for the clear play on fear and ignorance it is. Buddhism I found to simply be a more polished version of every other religion when I looked past its sheen. Christianity only had afew thousand years to get its PR campaign in order. Buddhism however has had more time to get rid of its less... enlightened of dogmas. A more refined mind virus. I looked at the other religions to give them a fair shake, did my research. All failed the test. This was the first time I really acknowledged Atheism as an option. It was the only one that made sense so, begrudgingly, I accepted my life had been a lie. That if theres one thing thats close to certainty its that none of us will make it out alive. 

That filled me with concern, fear, depression. For a while. I mean I repeated the same lie to myself everyone does at that point "Well at least you leave behind memories, thats a kind of immortality." Clear bullshit obviously, it never particularly washed with me. I mean memories fade pretty fast in the scheme of things and who cares about "ripples"? Yes yes, good for your relatives and friends. What about *you*? You're gone. Thats all there is to it. No words make that better, its just a reality. 
So what do we do in this time? I haven't had a clue about that for years. I still don't know really. I have no plan or massive endgame. Now all I feel is a pull. A desperate urge to travel, to keep moving, to keep running from one place to the next and feel the sea breeze against my face every second I can. It consumes every facet of me, has for the past month. Its only gotten stronger. Its not spiritual and its not some other worldly force. 
Its a part of me, telling me to live as fast as I can while I can. To be a blur, part of the chaos. A speck washed along a sea of possibility, making a desperate dash across it before it dries up. Thats still fear but I think its a good kind of fear, I think its that pull which keeps us alive instead of simply existing.

Thank you for sharing all of this, really. When I left Christianity, yea, there was a feeling that resided in me that I had been betrayed or lied to. You are brave to share all of this. To your last point, be careful to not go too fast that you might miss some things. Savor some of life too...quality over quantity.