If you were ever a theist...

[*Deidre*]

You never know, maybe God has ....but it requires you to believe that what maybe you felt/experienced, was Him.

No he hasn't. Nothing at all. I was a pastor's kid who fervently believed god was talking to me and guiding me, only I slowly discovered that I was just talking to myself and that all the "movement" and relief that I'd felt was just my emotions that I was controlling through my own wishful thinking.

What do you feel caused you to change your stance on that, though? Do you feel that because you were raised in faith, it was more pressed upon you to see things as your dad did, etc? Just wondering.

[Mystic]

Now you're just saying the only way to be persuaded by proofs of god is to already adore god .. which means you are already persuaded.  This is hopelessly circular.  Worse, who are you to say what other people's relationship to god "must" have been?  I was never a toady for god and neither did I conceive of god as desiring such a stance.  You are in no position to pass judgment in such broad sweeping ways.

I believe the heart is created to be attracted to the Divine.  Being attracted to the tranquility in the spirit of devotion to the divine doesn't mean one is convinced it exists. It means you long to know if it exists and wish it does. Of course, if you are going to reason "Why should I care about God and the path of devotion to her", that's a different story. I'm saying the healthy heart is attracted to the Divine and the path of devotion to it. It's a sign of God, but it doesn't mean you know God exists automatically because you are attracted to it. Of course, if you reflect over that which you are attracted to, that may lead to knowledge.

[Brakeman]

No he hasn't. Nothing at all. I was a pastor's kid who fervently believed god was talking to me and guiding me, only I slowly discovered that I was just talking to myself and that all the "movement" and relief that I'd felt was just my emotions that I was controlling through my own wishful thinking.

What do you feel caused you to change your stance on that, though? Do you feel that because you were raised in faith, it was more pressed upon you to see things as your dad did, etc? Just wondering.

Well As I've posted before here, it was mostly the melting of the cognitive dissidence that I hadn't before noticed that the people that claimed the most personal, active relationships with god were the worst people that I knew. I couldn't explain why my morality was better than the stories preached from the pulpit or observed in the homes of other pastors. I also observed that some of the best moral people I knew were victims of church wrath and were not "christians."  Reading to understand the bible made me an affirmed atheist. Growing up very well educated in science, and other disciplines made me much less gullible to quackery but never hardened my heart against truth if it is truth.

[dyresand]

Now you're just saying the only way to be persuaded by proofs of god is to already adore god .. which means you are already persuaded.  This is hopelessly circular.  Worse, who are you to say what other people's relationship to god "must" have been?  I was never a toady for god and neither did I conceive of god as desiring such a stance.  You are in no position to pass judgment in such broad sweeping ways.

I believe the heart is created to be attracted to the Divine.  Being attracted to the tranquility in the spirit of devotion to the divine doesn't mean one is convinced it exists. It means you long to know if it exists and wish it does. Of course, if you are going to reason "Why should I care about God and the path of devotion to her", that's a different story. I'm saying the healthy heart is attracted to the Divine and the path of devotion to it. It's a sign of God, but it doesn't mean you know God exists automatically because you are attracted to it. Of course, if you reflect over that which you are attracted to, that may lead to knowledge.

Except that you know the heart's primary purpose is to you know pump blood to supply our brain with oxygen.
Then  you got your red blood cells and your white i am not going to get into anatomy and say the whole idea of the heart
and the supernatural makes no sense. I mean if you propose that the heart literally was created for it being attracted to some god
like figure then it's a complete failure. But the heart is  just a heart it serves it's function keeping us alive without the spiritual nonsense
that you package it with.

[Brakeman]

Now you're just saying the only way to be persuaded by proofs of god is to already adore god .. which means you are already persuaded.  This is hopelessly circular.  Worse, who are you to say what other people's relationship to god "must" have been?  I was never a toady for god and neither did I conceive of god as desiring such a stance.  You are in no position to pass judgment in such broad sweeping ways.

I believe the heart is created to be attracted to the Divine.  Being attracted to the tranquility in the spirit of devotion to the divine doesn't mean one is convinced it exists. It means you long to know if it exists and wish it does. Of course, if you are going to reason "Why should I care about God and the path of devotion to her", that's a different story. I'm saying the healthy heart is attracted to the Divine and the path of devotion to it. It's a sign of God, but it doesn't mean you know God exists automatically because you are attracted to it. Of course, if you reflect over that which you are attracted to, that may lead to knowledge.

Guilt is uncomfortable, we all know that we've not lived perfect lives of fair citizenship so instead of putting forth tremendous effort and making amends to all of the individuals we fault, we find it easier and more comfortable to our heart to beg a vague imaginary being for forgiveness and allow ourselves the calmness of spirite when we have forgiven ourselves. No god involved.

[*Deidre*]

What do you feel caused you to change your stance on that, though? Do you feel that because you were raised in faith, it was more pressed upon you to see things as your dad did, etc? Just wondering.

Well As I've posted before here, it was mostly the melting of the cognitive dissidence that I hadn't before noticed that the people that claimed the most personal, active relationships with god were the worst people that I knew. I couldn't explain why my morality was better than the stories preached from the pulpit or observed in the homes of other pastors. I also observed that some of the best moral people I knew were victims of church wrath and were not "christians."  Reading to understand the bible made me an affirmed atheist. Growing up very well educated in science, and other disciplines made me much less gullible to quackery but never hardened my heart against truth if it is truth.

Appreciate you sharing this, thank you. After I deconverted, I remember having some anger over following faith for so long 'blindly,' as I called it. It didn't seem like all of my life, I had much of say in my faith, since I was raised in it. My dad is a devout Catholic still to this day, and part of why you remain, is as to not disappoint people in your life, which is never a good reason. So, in anger, I'd argue with theists, and one day I realized that if someone is happy in their faith, if on some level it brings them a sense of joy, even if I didn't believe in the origin of that joy, who was I to talk them out of it? If someone is harming others with their beliefs, that's a different story. I have a dear friend (who is an atheist) who is in my offline life, and he tells me he thinks I'm harming myself by believing in something that has no evidence, because it will cause me to be gullible in other areas. 'Your brain is going to become numb to logic.' But, to me, I'm still the same person ...as an atheist, or as a theist. The difference is that I have a deeper sense of peace than I did as an atheist. I admit that while I have always had a good life, I wasn't entirely at peace when I was an atheist. Not because I look to God to be a comforter but I felt like my sense of wonder was diminishing, Idk how to best articulate that. You know? 

There are people I have known who have left faith, and poof...they are completely done with it forever. Never look back. I'll also share with you too that logically, I never struggled being an atheist, it was on an emotional/interpersonal level that I did. Anyway, fwiw...just sharing that with you.

[Whateverist]

Now you're just saying the only way to be persuaded by proofs of god is to already adore god .. which means you are already persuaded.  This is hopelessly circular.  Worse, who are you to say what other people's relationship to god "must" have been?  I was never a toady for god and neither did I conceive of god as desiring such a stance.  You are in no position to pass judgment in such broad sweeping ways.

I believe the heart is created to be attracted to the Divine.  Being attracted to the tranquility in the spirit of devotion to the divine doesn't mean one is convinced it exists. It means you long to know if it exists and wish it does. Of course, if you are going to reason "Why should I care about God and the path of devotion to her", that's a different story. I'm saying the healthy heart is attracted to the Divine and the path of devotion to it. It's a sign of God, but it doesn't mean you know God exists automatically because you are attracted to it. Of course, if you reflect over that which you are attracted to, that may lead to knowledge.

So you believe because you believe.  Forget proof.  What you are doing is not informed by any sort of reasoning.  Rather, your reasoning is merely serving to dress up your naked bias to make it look more respectable.

[Mystic]

I believe the heart is created to be attracted to the Divine.  Being attracted to the tranquility in the spirit of devotion to the divine doesn't mean one is convinced it exists. It means you long to know if it exists and wish it does. Of course, if you are going to reason "Why should I care about God and the path of devotion to her", that's a different story. I'm saying the healthy heart is attracted to the Divine and the path of devotion to it. It's a sign of God, but it doesn't mean you know God exists automatically because you are attracted to it. Of course, if you reflect over that which you are attracted to, that may lead to knowledge.

So you believe because you believe.  Forget proof.  What you are doing is not informed by any sort of reasoning.  Rather, your reasoning is merely serving to dress up your naked bias to make it look more respectable.

Love itself is a inward language. It teaches a lot if not the most essential things in life. We don't reason how to be friends. We simply act and make friends. Our relationships are what they are through love. It's not some universal rule we apply the same, it's a whole language that applies differently to different people or things. We treat our parents, differently then our siblings, and treat our spouses different then siblings, children differently, etc, etc...and love teaches us to treat them in a similar yet different way.

If love was not linked to informing us of God, I would say definitely faith is not a virtue. Knowing God exists or not, would be a matter of simply knowing a fact to be true or not. 

The greatest trust in love and biggest treasure, is that of it's link to God. We sever that trust, we break that bond, and it's huge injustice on our souls. God loses out nothing, but we lose a great deal. In that latter sense, God loses since she is compassionate and caring, in the sense of her own essence, no harm is done to do it. 

You were asking my viewpoint. My stance. My view point it's not just a matter of this happens to be true or not, let's just find out the truth.

My view point is the heart of the soul and it's health depends on it's sincerity to God. Whether it is aware it knows God exists or not, it should be attracted to it.

God although is sublimely beyond our appreciation and realm, has no sons or consorts, is the closest being to all of us.  Her right is that the greatest right, love to her is the most important love.

Finding the truth of the Divine and wanting to know the truth way of submitting to Her is not simply a purely intellectual exercise, it's something that applies to everyone, through the heart of the soul.

[Pizza]

I don't know why, but I think "you gotta have faith" is super creepy. It's intellectual death. God damn, if I'm going to believe in something I do so because I think have strong enough evidence. I'd honestly would prefer people arguing god exists because they saw Jesus in their swimming pool, over people believing just cuz faith. I'm sorry if this comes out harsher than I mean it to.

I used to be a 'just cuz faith' person, then deconverted, then had a faith experience, and now...I'm not a 'just cuz faith' person. I'm more of a believer now, because I've had an experience. In all things, it's not just enough to take other people's words for it, which religion is often proposing. All religions rest on people having faith that the stories they are reading really happened once upon a time. But, to experience something, and to have it change your outlook and life, and so on...that compels me more to view it as not mere coincidence, and shake it off. But, to each their own. lol

That's good because at the end of the day we can only follow how things appear to us at the moment. I hope you find the true you're looking for. I hope you don't fall into black and white Christianity trap. It's okay to be Cafeteria Christian, it's the only way Christians can live.

[Mr.wizard]

Anyone speak gibberish?