pop morality

[TheRocketSurgeon]

For F*CK'S SAKE!!

I typed a huge, individually-detailed response, and before I could click "Post Reply", it discarded all my freakin' text!

Did it say something like the specified thread does not exist?  I believe that's because the text box is being overflowed.  There is apparently a character limit.  Try to abbreviate quotations with ellipses or something.

Anyways, the lost post should be recoverable if you just go back in your browser.  You'll be at the reply screen with your text still there.

First thing I tried. Was just the original text you get when you click "Reply", unmodified but ready to be added to.

I'm not even sure what I hit to make it happen in the first place, other than I bumped my keyboard when I was in the process of clicking Post Reply.

[Jenny A]

@Dritch

Your premise, god equals righteousness fails initially on two counts: no one can demonstrate there is a god; and no one can agree about what god is. But your argument in this thread makes nothing of those objections. Because what you are saying is god equals righteousness and god's law is contained in the Bible. Well sorry, but the moral trash contained in the Bible is the best reason for dismissing old Yahweh I know of. That "god" is the most immoral, discriminating, arbitrary, genocidal, slavery loving, cruel, sexist, baby killing (born and unborn), sadistic a beast as I can imagine. He makes Hitler look like a piker. That, if nothing else shows him to be an invention of the people writing him.

Human morality, and it is a human concept, though some birds and mammals show similar inclinations, is an imperfect thing. Very imperfect, so imperfect that some men wrote the Bible based on it's then current precepts. But it's better than the god of the OT, who, as described by you is the ultimate justification for all moral imperfection. You use him to justify as necessary: rape, slavery, genocide. What more need be said? You can keep him, but don't follow him too far, because there's an electric chair at the end of that path. And it won't be for believing but for bloody fucking murderous actions.

So human morality is imperfect. What should we do? Say, ah well god will forgive us? Or worse yet try to carry out Christian law? No, we should do the best we can in an imperfect world. You say, the posters here are not morally perfect, and that the world is not morally perfect? Tell us something new. But, I doubt you'll find a single poster here as immoral as the god of the OT.

People learn. Slowly, three steps forward, two steps back. And we have greater ability to do harm than we did what with increased weaponry. But we also have better communication, and greater resources. I understand that people living on the edge of extinction are likely to be less "nice" than people with largess to share. But we have that largess. There's no reason to follow the rules of a people living on the edge beset at all sides by bigger stronger nations waiting to take what little they had away.

[Nihilist Virus]

Did it say something like the specified thread does not exist?  I believe that's because the text box is being overflowed.  There is apparently a character limit.  Try to abbreviate quotations with ellipses or something.

Anyways, the lost post should be recoverable if you just go back in your browser.  You'll be at the reply screen with your text still there.

First thing I tried. Was just the original text you get when you click "Reply", unmodified but ready to be added to.

I'm not even sure what I hit to make it happen in the first place, other than I bumped my keyboard when I was in the process of clicking Post Reply.

:/

[Drich]

@Dritch

Your premise, god equals righteousness fails initially on two counts:  no one can demonstrate there is a god;

If we could then he would no longer be God... However God has provided a path that if anyone were to follow would indeed Find Him.

and no one can agree about what god is.

I can promise you we (all bible believeing people Jew and Christian alike) agree on what God is.
God is the Alpha and Omega, the beginning and end to all Things.

 But your argument in this thread makes nothing of those objections.

because they are quite easily dismissed.

 Because what you are saying is god equals righteousness

No where did i say that?
Again God is Alpha and Omega. Righteousness is whatever God wants it to be.

and god's law is contained in the Bible.

Well, even a broken clock is right twice a day.

 Well sorry, but the moral trash contained in the Bible is the best reason for dismissing old Yahweh I know of.That "god" is the most immoral, discriminating, arbitrary, genocidal, slavery loving, cruel, sexist, baby killing (born and unborn), sadistic a beast as I can imagine. He makes Hitler look like a piker.

...And that is the point to this thread is it not? That if 'morality' is left unchecked it will spiral away from God's righteousness. Meaning IF morality becomes the standard then everything not like it can be condemned as evil.

Do you not understand the implication here? The implication being that ANYTHING even EVIL can be come 'good' and 'good' will be seen as Evil.

Just like the bible warns.

Again that was the reason I pointed to the nazis. None of them saw what they did as being evil. "pop Morality" in that soceity said it was 'moral' to send jews to death camps!!! None of them saw what they were doing as evil.

then like wise I have used several examples the modern soceity does that 'morality' deems God as evil allowing them in the bible, and yet modern soceity embraces these instances.

That, if nothing else shows him to be an invention of the people writing him.  

how so?

Human morality, and it is a human concept, though some birds and mammals show similar inclinations, is an imperfect thing.  Very imperfect, so imperfect that some men wrote the Bible based on it's then current precepts.  But it's better than the god of the OT, who, as described by you is the ultimate justification for all moral imperfection.  You use him to justify as necessary:  rape, slavery, genocide.   What more need be said? You can keep him, but don't follow him too far, because there's an electric chair at the end of that path.  And it won't be for believing but for bloody fucking murderous actions.

this is a good example of what I just said.

You said soceity has evolved away from: Rape, slavery and Genocide.

Again, I contend that all of these things are still present and accepted in today's society. They are just called something different now. So that older examples (Examples that do not comply with the modern defination/loop holes) can be condemned. Therefore allowing the self righteous to condemn God.

So human morality is imperfect.

It's beyond imperfect. It is hypocritical.

 What should we do?

do not tie our self worth to our 'morality.' Use morality as a guideline, but at the same time do not let other control you by making you adhear to current pop moral standards..

Say, ah well god will forgive us? Or worse yet try to carry out Christian law?

I can not believe how you still do not understand the basics of Christianity. That you still have no clue as to how it works..
"God's law' is NOT Meant to be followed. It is not a system of 'morality.'

Do You Understand this?

God's law is only set up to show we are all sinners and need atonement.

That is the alternative to 'morality.' Freedom from doing right or wrong things!!!

 No, we should do the best we can in an imperfect world.  You say, the posters here are not morally perfect, and that the world is not morally perfect?  Tell us something new.  But, I doubt you'll find a single poster here as immoral as the god of the OT.  

Because you have changed 'morality' to exclude God.

Don't you understand that is what self righteousness means?

That you based on what you think is right and wrong have created your own version of righteousness. That in essence is the very definition of 'morality.'

What's more this self righteousness is not better.. It does not exclude the acts you pretend to judge God 'immoral' by.. it simply changes the definitions. it hides your sin. You all still commit genocide, slavery, and kill babies. You just have different names. War on terror/terrorists, migrant workers, abortion. Again the act is the same, it's just 'morality' justifies your deeds. That is what makes 'moral people' hypocrites.'

People learn.  Slowly, three steps forward, two steps back.  And we have greater ability to do harm than we did what with increased weaponry.  But we also have better communication, and greater resources.  I understand that people living on the edge of extinction are likely to be less "nice" than people with largess to share.  But we have that largess.  There's no reason to follow the rules of a people living on the edge beset at all sides by bigger stronger nations waiting to take what little they had away.

How do you not understand that the sense of you being more evolved is only an illusion? YOU STILL DO THE SAME THINGS WE HAVE ALWAYS DONE! It's just called by different names.

[downbeatplumb]

Ah communism, another word you don't know the meaning.
So communism is pretty much the opposite of what you think it is. (Do not confuse Stalinist Russia, China etc for communist states. They were communist in name only, just as Disney is not really "the happiest place on earth")

Ah.. delusion...

Hey, 'smart guy' if Russia and China are the only two success stories of communism guess what!?!? THAT IS WHAT REAL COMMUNISM IS!!!! Despite What People Who Do Nothing More Than Discuss It Think!!!

There has never been a communist country as defined by Karl Marx, not one. So your pointing at China and Russia etc is of no real use. remember China is at this moment probably more capitalistic than the US and Russia and Korea they are bastardisations of the idea.

[Nihilist Virus]

Drich,

You have already lost this debate.

So... when God said that the slave owners could use the virgins as "breeding fodder" or whatever it is you said, this was a righteous commandment?

yes.

Again Righteousness is not assigned by evaluating action and judging it good or bad. It is following the command of God.

Now that said, without any absolute standards, what makes any of you think that your current acceptance of pop morality as being 'the good and right thing' makes you any different than those who have accepted the pop morality of their time and or culture? Meaning if you have no absolutes standards in your life (like the bible,) and if you were born into Hitler's Germany, under North Korean rule or maybe under an ISIS state, and just like you do now, you blindly follow and do not challenge pop morality of your culture, how then would you find your way back to what you now consider to be 'moral'?

God's will changes over time... at least I assume as much. Or is God still cool with owning rape slaves? Does he still require ritualistic animal sacrifice?

No. So how, then, is his morality absolute?

[Jenny A]

@Dritch

Your premise, god equals righteousness fails initially on two counts:  no one can demonstrate there is a god;

If we could then he would no longer be God... However God has provided a path that if anyone were to follow would indeed Find Him.

and no one can agree about what god is.

I can promise you we (all bible believeing people Jew and Christian alike) agree on what God is.
God is the Alpha and Omega, the beginning and end to all Things.

 But your argument in this thread makes nothing of those objections.

because they are quite easily dismissed.

 Because what you are saying is god equals righteousness

No where did i say that?
Again God is Alpha and Omega. Righteousness is whatever God wants it to be.

and god's law is contained in the Bible.

Well, even a broken clock is right twice a day.

 Well sorry, but the moral trash contained in the Bible is the best reason for dismissing old Yahweh I know of.That "god" is the most immoral, discriminating, arbitrary, genocidal, slavery loving, cruel, sexist, baby killing (born and unborn), sadistic a beast as I can imagine. He makes Hitler look like a piker.

...And that is the point to this thread is it not? That if 'morality' is left unchecked it will spiral away from God's righteousness. Meaning IF morality becomes the standard then everything not like it can be condemned as evil.

Do you not understand the implication here? The implication being that ANYTHING even EVIL can be come 'good' and 'good' will be seen as Evil.

Just like the bible warns.

Again that was the reason I pointed to the nazis. None of them saw what they did as being evil. "pop Morality" in that soceity said it was 'moral' to send jews to death camps!!! None of them saw what they were doing as evil.

then like wise I have used several examples the modern soceity does that 'morality' deems God as evil allowing them in the bible, and yet modern soceity embraces these instances.

That, if nothing else shows him to be an invention of the people writing him.  

how so?

Human morality, and it is a human concept, though some birds and mammals show similar inclinations, is an imperfect thing.  Very imperfect, so imperfect that some men wrote the Bible based on it's then current precepts.  But it's better than the god of the OT, who, as described by you is the ultimate justification for all moral imperfection.  You use him to justify as necessary:  rape, slavery, genocide.   What more need be said? You can keep him, but don't follow him too far, because there's an electric chair at the end of that path.  And it won't be for believing but for bloody fucking murderous actions.

this is a good example of what I just said.

You said soceity has evolved away from: Rape, slavery and Genocide.

Again, I contend that all of these things are still present and accepted in today's society. They are just called something different now. So that older examples (Examples that do not comply with the modern defination/loop holes) can be condemned. Therefore allowing the self righteous to condemn God.

So human morality is imperfect.

It's beyond imperfect. It is hypocritical.

 What should we do?

do not tie our self worth to our 'morality.' Use morality as a guideline, but at the same time do not let other control you by making you adhear to current pop moral standards..

Say, ah well god will forgive us? Or worse yet try to carry out Christian law?

I can not believe how you still do not understand the basics of Christianity. That you still have no clue as to how it works..
"God's law' is NOT Meant to be followed. It is not a system of 'morality.'

Do You Understand this?

God's law is only set up to show we are all sinners and need atonement.

That is the alternative to 'morality.' Freedom from doing right or wrong things!!!

 No, we should do the best we can in an imperfect world.  You say, the posters here are not morally perfect, and that the world is not morally perfect?  Tell us something new.  But, I doubt you'll find a single poster here as immoral as the god of the OT.  

Because you have changed 'morality' to exclude God.

Don't you understand that is what self righteousness means?

That you based on what you think is right and wrong have created your own version of righteousness. That in essence is the very definition of 'morality.'

What's more this self righteousness is not better.. It does not exclude the acts you pretend to judge God 'immoral' by.. it simply changes the definitions. it hides your sin. You all still commit genocide, slavery, and kill babies. You just have different names. War on terror/terrorists, migrant workers, abortion. Again the act is the same, it's just 'morality' justifies your deeds. That is what makes 'moral people' hypocrites.'

People learn.  Slowly, three steps forward, two steps back.  And we have greater ability to do harm than we did what with increased weaponry.  But we also have better communication, and greater resources.  I understand that people living on the edge of extinction are likely to be less "nice" than people with largess to share.  But we have that largess.  There's no reason to follow the rules of a people living on the edge beset at all sides by bigger stronger nations waiting to take what little they had away.

How do you not understand that the sense of you being more evolved is only an illusion? YOU STILL DO THE SAME THINGS WE HAVE ALWAYS DONE! It's just called by different names.

The illusion is god. Your view is entirely based on his existence. Until you show he exists, your point of view is fantasy.

[Crossless2.0]

I swear, Jenny, if you prove to be responsible for opening that A/S/K can of bullshit in this thread . . . to the moon! To the moon!

[Drich]

Ah.. delusion...

Hey, 'smart guy' if Russia and China are the only two success stories of communism guess what!?!? THAT IS WHAT REAL COMMUNISM IS!!!! Despite What People Who Do Nothing More Than Discuss It Think!!!

There has never been a communist country as defined by Karl Marx, not one. So your pointing at China and Russia etc is of no real use. remember China is at this moment probably more capitalistic than the US and Russia and Korea they are bastardisations of the idea.

Their has never been a communist country defined by the book animal farm either (where literal pigs become the ruling class) so, then what's your point?

My point is the fact that communism always seems to break down into the 'animal farm pattern' (Per the two biggest examples China and Russia)  means that, that particular incarnation of communism is the only one that works/is viable in the real world, so marx ideas be dammed, because in the end his ideas are little more than idealistic nonsense, that has been tried for over 100 years now with nary a successful example to prove his model.

I was asking for One Example one proven model of society not built or maintained on slavery. Marx's communism is not a viable example by your own admission, in that not one society has ever established that version as a working model. the only working models enslave ALL people to the government.

[Drich]

If we could then he would no longer be God... However God has provided a path that if anyone were to follow would indeed Find Him.
I can promise you we (all bible believeing people Jew and Christian alike) agree on what God is.
God is the Alpha and Omega, the beginning and end to all Things.

because they are quite easily dismissed.

No where did i say that?
Again God is Alpha and Omega. Righteousness is whatever God wants it to be.

Well, even a broken clock is right twice a day.

...And that is the point to this thread is it not? That if 'morality' is left unchecked it will spiral away from God's righteousness. Meaning IF morality becomes the standard then everything not like it can be condemned as evil.

Do you not understand the implication here? The implication being that ANYTHING even EVIL can be come 'good' and 'good' will be seen as Evil.

Just like the bible warns.

Again that was the reason I pointed to the nazis. None of them saw what they did as being evil. "pop Morality" in that soceity said it was 'moral' to send jews to death camps!!! None of them saw what they were doing as evil.

then like wise I have used several examples the modern soceity does that 'morality' deems God as evil allowing them in the bible, and yet modern soceity embraces these instances.

how so?

this is a good example of what I just said.

You said soceity has evolved away from: Rape, slavery and Genocide.

Again, I contend that all of these things are still present and accepted in today's society. They are just called something different now. So that older examples (Examples that do not comply with the modern defination/loop holes) can be condemned. Therefore allowing the self righteous to condemn God.

It's beyond imperfect. It is hypocritical.

do not tie our self worth to our 'morality.' Use morality as a guideline, but at the same time do not let other control you by making you adhear to current pop moral standards..

I can not believe how you still do not understand the basics of Christianity. That you still have no clue as to how it works..
"God's law' is NOT Meant to be followed. It is not a system of 'morality.'

Do You Understand this?

God's law is only set up to show we are all sinners and need atonement.

That is the alternative to 'morality.' Freedom from doing right or wrong things!!!

 Because you have changed 'morality' to exclude God.

Don't you understand that is what self righteousness means?

That you based on what you think is right and wrong have created your own version of righteousness. That in essence is the very definition of 'morality.'

What's more this self righteousness is not better.. It does not exclude the acts you pretend to judge God 'immoral' by.. it simply changes the definitions. it hides your sin. You all still commit genocide, slavery, and kill babies. You just have different names. War on terror/terrorists, migrant workers, abortion. Again the act is the same, it's just 'morality' justifies your deeds. That is what makes 'moral people' hypocrites.'

How do you not understand that the sense of you being more evolved is only an illusion? YOU STILL DO THE SAME THINGS WE HAVE ALWAYS DONE! It's just called by different names.

The  illusion is god. Your view is entirely based on his existence.  Until you show he exists,  your point of view is fantasy.

Again Jen-A,

If I could produce God on Demand He would not be God. I would be.

God has established a way for all who seek proof to COME TO HIM. He is not Going to you on your terms.