Could atheist westerners, please explain?

[The Grand Nudger]

If you think that secularism means "the ends justify the means", Altas.... you're wrong, consider yourself corrected.  That statement is taken as a "falsism" on it's face by schoolchildren in secular countries........but nevermind that, nevermind that, again., secularists are your ideology's most powerful and dedicated allies.......

Kind of sad when guys like me are the best friends you've got, on that count, hooah?

[robvalue]

You're right, we are his friends. We want to protect him from being mobbed by whatever other religion comes along and forces him to live by their rules. Opponents of secularism want him to be entirely vulnerable to this.

I don't know how much more clear I can make it. Would Atlas think it's OK to be forced to be a Hindu, if the numbers went their way? If not, that is the problem with his position. If he thinks that would be fair, then I can only think he hasn't put enough thought into what this really means; or else his religion doesn't matter to him and is just a means to an end for controlling purposes. But OK. If he wants to live in a world ruled by force and mob justice, then he can never be part of the civilised world.

He can't think "secular" without adding loads of other agendas to it. That is testament to the propaganda. Again, think of it the other way. "Muslim means ISIS." Is he OK with that statement? Unless he is, he's a massive hypocrite. Blaming every secular person... even... children?! for perceived shortcomings in the past is maniacal. Should we hold Atlas responsible for everything bad a Muslim has ever done?

Empathy. Try it out.

[WinterHold]

Exactly! It's there to protect religious people. Without religion, we wouldn't even need the concept of secularism (or atheism, pretty much). It's there to protect everyone.

Of course people like Atlas are happy to force everyone to do things their way when their numbers are high, but how happy would he be if another religion sprung up and suddenly he's being forced to live by rules totally against his religion?

It's mob rule, and it's not healthy.

I don't have all eternity, so I'm not repeating this again: I can't force anything on you, since the Quran says is it loud and clear: "there shall be no compulsion in religion". Verse 256, Sura 2.

As a general concept; too:

Sura 11
( 26 )   That you not worship except Allah. Indeed, I fear for you the punishment of a painful day."
( 27 )   So the eminent among those who disbelieved from his people said, "We do not see you but as a man like ourselves, and we do not see you followed except by those who are the lowest of us [and] at first suggestion. And we do not see in you over us any merit; rather, we think you are liars."
( 28 )   He said, "O my people have you considered: if I should be upon clear evidence from my Lord while He has given me mercy from Himself but it has been made unapparent to you, should we force it upon you while you are averse to it?

The bold verse; rob. Please, answer to those two verses (the above, and 256 in Sura 2) before accusing me of tyranny. Obviously, the Quran forbids forcing the faith on anybody.

Perhaps you want to make sure, through another verse?

Sura 7
 85 )   And to [the people of] Madyan [We sent] their brother Shu'ayb. He said, "O my people, worship Allah; you have no deity other than Him. There has come to you clear evidence from your Lord. So fulfill the measure and weight and do not deprive people of their due and cause not corruption upon the earth after its reformation. That is better for you, if you should be believers.
( 86 )   And do not sit on every path, threatening and averting from the way of Allah those who believe in Him, seeking to make it [seem] deviant. And remember when you were few and He increased you. And see how was the end of the corrupters.
( 87 )   And if there should be a group among you who has believed in that with which I have been sent and a group that has not believed, then be patient until Allah judges between us. And He is the best of judges."

Ah, do you know when God is going to judge between us?

Sura 22
( 69 )   Allah will judge between you on the Day of Resurrection concerning that over which you used to differ."


What do you understand from this?
We will know the truth after we die, anyways, so let's wait; just like it was mentioned in Sura 7.

It is non-Muslim regimes, that rule by the sword, and call it "state authority".
I too, thought you are a nice person, rob. Please don't use the "ISIS" fallacy, because it just became cheesy nowadays. All of us know what ISIS is, and all of us know that these verses I cited -which demolish the whole concept ISIS believe in- are ignored by the west and by secular countries.

MrNoMorePropaganda

As a starter, I totally believe that there were no "true" Islamic regimes since the time of Mohammed -peace be upon him-. The capital -"Medina"- in his time, had Jewish, Christian & heathen societies, he didn't force Islam on them. The Quran mentions it in many times; how Jews and Christians came to the prophet so he judge and rule between them.

Check this interesting verse:

Sura 3

( 23 )   Do you not consider, [O Muhammad], those who were given a portion of the Scripture? They are invited to the Scripture of Allah that it should arbitrate between them; then a party of them turns away, and they are refusing.

Actually, there are people who used to refuse the ruling of Mohammed; we don't see them arrested, jailed or tortured, it was totally acceptable. There is no capital punishment, all critics of the Quran can be my guests and search the book.

That being said..

It's not "my version"; I actually stick to the verses -literally-. Just like in my comment to rob above; uh, when I see something in the Quran I don't just simply cross it and ignore it.

The Salafi/Wahhabi bunch, bring Hadiths to give them the means to cross and bypass the verses I posted. So "no compulsion" would be "Omar lashed people who drink alcohol", or "Mohammed mass murdered the Jews", etc.

It's a Salafi/Wahhabi tone to treat God as an ATM. You posted a video in the Islamic section, that the Quran should be read in Arabic only; and that people who can't speak Arabic should repeat what they don't understand like "parrots". Indeed; the heavens are an atm to the Salafi, after all.

Uh..ICBMS had "unintended" negativity? it's not like its creator didn't know the monstrous tool that would be produced; the soviet union had no morals so no wonder the Missile production reached its peak over a slight, stupid argument between 2 superpowers.

The union began the production of these missiles "to burn any opposing force"; it is intended, MNMP.

The biggest question is that: were the Manhaten project along with the strikes against Japan, the main motivation for the ballistic missile production by the ussr, or was it simply the idea of worldwide domination, or a mixture between the two? I'm dead sure it's not the space program; as if that matters..if the budget of the army was given to the space programs in the past years; maybe we would've started to build colonies out there.

But they knew the consequences of such dirty tech. The military scientists though.
But that's how the military is. It jumped on the space program, and took the discoveries by force; to bring upon us a dirty invention.

[robvalue]

You complained secularism was stopping you ruling with religion. What has the Quran got to do with that? Are you changing your position now? I'd be really happy if you did.

I don't know how you can rule with religion without forcing me to do things.

I'm using ISIS to show you what a ridiculous mess you are making of secularism. It's exactly the same thing.

[The Grand Nudger]

-and none of that..Atlas, not a word, not a tittle, not a single mark of punctuation, belongs in government.  That's all that "secular" means. You can believe every word and still be secular.

[ignoramus]

Wow. Before reading that, I was generous enough to side Atlas with the "reasonable Muslims". Now I feel his mental state is closer to ISIS.

Religion has rotted his humanity.

I don't think religion has rotted his humanity, just his mind.
And when the brain cannot think clearly and fairly, well, then all bets are off.

read my sig.  I gave up loooong ago!     Hehe

[robvalue]

You blame every secular person, including me, for everything bad any secular person has done.

I blame every Muslim, and you Atlas, for everything bad any Muslim has ever done.

How is that any different?

[robvalue]

I know you said "if the majority agree with you". But that doesn't change the fact that you want to force religious rule on me, if you had the chance.

Would you think it's fair and right to be forced under a different religious rule, if you found yourself in the minority?

[ignoramus]

Yes, but only if he really really believes in his heart of hearts that his god is the ONE true god!
That way, he justifies it as him being the nice guy trying to save us from ourselves...

Everyone's the good guy! Just like all drivers are above average drivers.

I admire your logic and perseverance Rob, but as Joe Walsh said: You can't argue with a sick mind.

[robvalue]

Thank you

I don't want to give up on Atlas, if there's any hope of reaching him still. I just hope he will take the time to think instead of reacting with more propaganda he's been fed.

I don't know why religious people think God needs their help to rule. If god wanted to rule over me, he could do. The fact that he doesn't isn't an invitation for others to step in and play God. Everything you do and say on your god's behalf betrays a frustration with God's inaction.