The Problem with Christians

[The Grand Nudger]

The same argument can be used against you. The entire education system in the west has been taken over by pro-evolutionists. It's extremely difficult, if not impossible to get a teaching position in a biology department anywhere unless you tow the pro-evolution line. Your pre-ingrained education and desire to be the master of your own destiny prohibits you from even considering the existence of God.

Get your tinfoil hat on, it's a giant conspiracy.  It couldn't -possibly- be that you're flat out wrong.  We're clearly out to get you.  Hey, pro-tip..guess why it's difficult to get teaching position in a biology department if you plan on teaching creationism?  Because we expect an educator to.....educate.  Some loon raving about a ghost's mighty cantrips doesn't pass the bar for a biology teacher. Thank god.

I'm sure there's plenty of room for that guy in a church, or peddling fiction-as-fact or religion-as-science to gullible dolts..........and no one stops them from doing so, obviously.

[LadyForCamus]

How convenient for you.

No more "convenient" than the change of laws we see in the quantum domain.

No, it's convenient for YOU because it makes your assertion work. There are no assertions when it comes to the scientific method...on any level. Only following of the evidence.

[LadyForCamus]

The same argument can be used against you. The entire education system in the west has been taken over by pro-evolutionists. It's extremely difficult, if not impossible to get a teaching position in a biology department anywhere unless you tow the pro-evolution line. Your pre-ingrained education and desire to be the master of your own destiny prohibits you from even considering the existence of God.

Get your tinfoil hat on, it's a giant conspiracy.  It couldn't -possibly- be that you're flat out wrong.  We're clearly out to get you.  Hey, pro-tip..guess why it's difficult to get teaching position in a biology department if you plan on teaching creationism?  Because we expect an educator to.....educate.  Some loon raving about ghost's mighty cantrips doesn't pass the bar for a biology teacher. Thank god.

I'm actually quite surprised it took this long for the, "it's a conspiracy!" shit to start flying.

[AJW333]

You assume that God is subject to the same laws of nature that you and I are. The laws of our universe do not apply to God who exists outside our realm of existence.

How did you acquire knowledge of a being that exists outside of our universe, or what the laws of that other x might -or- might not be?  You probably don't have any knowledge of me, or what laws I live under...and I'm in the universe talking to you.  To be blunt, if god exists outside of our universe, then his existence is moot, as it's functionally identical to non-existence in -this- universe.  If god isn't in my "realm of existence", why should I give a shit about god stuff?

Fair question and one that requires further explanation of the realms of God's existence. Before the creation of the universe, God was already extant. When he created the universe, he did not remain remote from it, but was free to interact with it. In fact, Christians believe that God is very active in this world and in the lives of those who believe.

[LadyForCamus]

How did you acquire knowledge of a being that exists outside of our universe, or what the laws of that other x might -or- might not be?  You probably don't have any knowledge of me, or what laws I live under...and I'm in the universe talking to you.  To be blunt, if god exists outside of our universe, then his existence is moot, as it's functionally identical to non-existence in -this- universe.  If god isn't in my "realm of existence", why should I give a shit about god stuff?

Fair question and one that requires further explanation of the realms of God's existence. Before the creation of the universe, God was already extant. When he created the universe, he did not remain remote from it, but was free to interact with it. In fact, Christians believe that God is very active in this world and in the lives of those who believe.

Evidence?

[The Grand Nudger]

Fair question and one that requires further explanation of the realms of God's existence. Before the creation of the universe, God was already extant.

I asked you how you knew whatever it is you claim to know.

When he created the universe, he did not remain remote from it, but was free to interact with it.

Cool story, but again, how do you know this?

In fact, Christians believe that God is very active in this world and in the lives of those who believe.

So he's not outside of this universe after all? Strange, because a moment ago.......you said he was.

-and you still haven't explained how you came upon this knowledge.  You said it was a fair question........and then dropped it like a ton of bricks. WTF?

[LadyForCamus]

Ya know...the last 3 or so pages of this thread is just you, AJW, special pleading. Why are we even entertaining the world's most drawn out logical fucking fallacy? It's ridiculous. Sorry, but you don't get to say, "you guys have to follow ALL these scientific rules! But my God doesn't because he's immune to all the rules!" Logical fallacy. Mind-set of a 4 year old. My imaginary friend gets to do whatever he wants.

[AAA]

It is math, I don't need to appeal to citations because it is universal. If you don't like the math, then point out where it went wrong. 

It's math based on factual claims about proteins and how they might be derived: your numbers may be right, but that doesn't mean they actually correspond to the real world objects you're making reference to. If I use my own height as a yardstick with which to determine the height of an object, but I also mistakenly think I'm 100 feet tall, then my numbers might be perfectly correct without giving me the actual height of the object.

Additionally, again: do you think that scientists just plum don't have any answers to these contentions?

It doesn't matter if we start with proteins or not, we eventually have to account for there formation.

It matters if your argument is predicated on the idea that each protein must be coded from scratch, rather than building from simpler bases up to modern proteins, which would be a perfectly valid abiogenetic process. Also, you're falling into the same trap AJW did, where you're mistaking "poking a hole in abiogenesis," with "providing evidence for your religious claims."

Also how could we start with something similar? DNA and RNA are going to give you the same problem, only worse, because you have to eventually develop a code for proteins with a specific structure that allows them to interact with the DNA/RNA. Also, even attempts to artificially design RNA that is capable of autocatalysis have failed. The reason I chose protein is that they are necessary in every living system that has ever been observed, so to say that we can start with something simpler is speculation.

Somebody who believes in god has no business appealing to observations to dismiss anyone elses' positions.

I figured we should start with what we know to exist rather than something we don't know existed (a self replicating RNA).

Who even said RNA? The fact is that we don't know how it happened, and yet you're still making assumptions about how it did, while somehow having the wherewithal to suggest that others shouldn't do that. It's a bit breathtaking, actually.

And yes, scientists don't have a counter to this. That why the origin of life issue is so difficult. Most researchers recognize that chance alone is not sufficient. The typical counter is that some simpler self replicating molecules began competing, but these ideas are often vague and chemically impractical. 

Did you ask any scientists, or do any research at all, or is this one of those things where we have to accept "because I said so," as justification?

Also, you saying that I believe a wizard poofed everything into existence is an unfair oversimplification. That would be like me saying that you believe a rock magically turned into a human.

Except that's what the bible says happened: god "spoke" things into existence, which is literally a golem spell. Now, you can interpret that other ways, but the fact is that you've got no other basis for the creation account other than that you look better if you don't ascribe to literal creation.

Oversimplification or not, though, you're still contending with a probability of zero, for god. There's no getting around that, especially given how crazy you are for odds everywhere else.

The factual claims were that most proteins fall in the realm of 100 to a few thousand amino acids and that there are 20 different amino acids used to construct proteins. They are both true. Ask any freshman biology student.

Why is proteins moving from less to more complex/functional a perfectly valid abiogenetic process?

And I said RNA because that is the answer I usually get. It is speculative. It is more speculative than protein, because we don't know that RNA can replicate information, but we know proteins can.

[AJW333]

The laws of our universe do not apply to God who exists outside our realm of existence.

You insist that your god created this universe, therefore it must be within your god's realm.

Yes and no. Depends on how we are using the term "realm." If we say that realm applies to domain, then the domain of heaven is outside the universe.  If we use realm in the sense of "reach" or "influence", then the universe is within God's realm.

[LadyForCamus]

You insist that your god created this universe, therefore it must be within your god's realm.

Yes and no. Depends on how we are using the term "realm." If we say that realm applies to domain, then the domain of heaven is outside the universe.  If we use realm in the sense of "reach" or "influence", then the universe is within God's realm.

Oh, for fuck's sake...citation needed, lol.