Evidence for Jesus Christ?

[DeistPaladin]

A god who creates Hell has no idea of forgiveness.

Oooooo, excellent point. By their definition, Hell is eternal. There is no "OK, you've learned your lesson, I forgive you, you can come out now."

Any god that threatens eternal Hell is by definition declaring that there are at least some who will never be forgiven under any circumstances.

[tackattack]

DP, by my definition as a Christian, teacher and that of my fellow Christians I've worship with for almost 20 years with; Hell is eternal, the punishment isn't. Hard to continuously punish someone when they're destroyed. Bottom line for me, the place is eternal, the punishment isn't. It may be worded as final and therefore there is no reprieve from the destruction (in essence an everlasting consequence as destruction is final), but any Christian who denies otherwise ignores the very clear wording of Jesus (that he can destroy both soul and body in Hell). Then there are legions of Christians that don't even believe in hell as imaginatively described.

Heaven isn't about Hell isn't about forgiveness/reward for something we've done. It's a matter of repentance and acceptance. All who repent and accept are forgiven, those that don't obviously don't care about being forgiven and are relinquished to their lot.

[reverendjeremiah]

A god who creates Hell has no idea of forgiveness.

Oooooo, excellent point. By their definition, Hell is eternal. There is no "OK, you've learned your lesson, I forgive you, you can come out now."

Any god that threatens eternal Hell is by definition declaring that there are at least some who will never be forgiven under any circumstances.

Even if it isnt eternal. Even if Hell was just for a day, or an hour, it is STILL horrifying and shows that their god isnt one of "perfect forgivness". It would be like me saying "Well, you took my book without permission and for me to forgive you, you have to endure absolute pain and suffering in flames before I can bring myself to forgive you."

Forgivness. TRUE forgivness is unconditional. "It is MY gift to you" is something someone who truly forgives would say.

This is a big thing for me, so I tend to categorizes christians less by sect and more by belief in Hell:

1 - Believers in the prince of peace, who is kind gentle and forgiving. These christians frown upon the idea of a hell, or like my mother taught me "No loving god would invent a hell. He would forgive everyone." These people are easy going and not judgemental. They accept gays, atheists, other religious types, etc. The furthest they go is to suggest that those who dont believe just stay dead and are not tortured.

2 - Believers in the Lord of Hell. The God who has a big book, and makes everyone watch every life decision you made on a big screen TV, and then claims that he never knew you if you didnt scrape at his feet every moment of your life. Then he has you THROWN into the Hell that HE created, the Hell that HE controls, the HEll that HE decides who gets thrown into. To suffer in agony forever and ever while those who worshipped him yell "Praise our holy god is just and true!". These people KNOW that their Lord of Hell is unpopular, so they play word tricks on you. They say that "you" will toss yourself in Hell, not Jesus.

[Doubting Thomas]

Wow, I've never heard of this non-eternal punishment in hell before. All other Christians I've ever talked to say that punishment in hell is eternal. So exactly how long does the punishment last, and what happens at the end of it? Do you get to get out and join your loved ones in heaven who had a get-out-of-jail-free card? Or do you just disappear forever once you're finally burned up in the fires?

[DeistPaladin]

Wow, I've never heard of this non-eternal punishment in hell before. All other Christians I've ever talked to say that punishment in hell is eternal. So exactly how long does the punishment last, and what happens at the end of it? Do you get to get out and join your loved ones in heaven who had a get-out-of-jail-free card? Or do you just disappear forever once you're finally burned up in the fires?

It's based on the school of thought that Hell represents annihilation. They focus on the verses in Revelation that say those not found in the Book of Life are thrown into the "Lake of Fire" which represents "the second death". They interpret this to mean the condemned cease to exist, they don't suffer eternally in torment.

Of course, Jesus had other things to say but the Gospels were written later than Revelation, so perhaps the priests decided annihilation wasn't scary enough.

[reverendjeremiah]

Heaven isn't about Hell isn't about forgiveness/reward for something we've done. It's a matter of repentance and acceptance. All who repent and accept are forgiven, those that don't obviously don't care about being forgiven and are relinquished to their lot.

So let me get this straight. I have to ask for forgiveness before I am forgiven. And then, of course, I have to follow the guidlines in that book..right?

How is that forgivness?

Forgivness is a gift. the god you believe in looks very petty compared to me in this category, as I would (and have) given forgivness as a gift. No strings attached, and even when I was mad enough to hit the person. I gave the forgivness, and calmed myself down later. In fact it was my forgivness that helped calm me down.

[Minimalist]

DP, by my definition as a Christian, teacher and that of my fellow Christians I've worship with for almost 20 years with; Hell is eternal, the punishment isn't. Hard to continuously punish someone when they're destroyed. Bottom line for me, the place is eternal, the punishment isn't. It may be worded as final and therefore there is no reprieve from the destruction (in essence an everlasting consequence as destruction is final), but any Christian who denies otherwise ignores the very clear wording of Jesus (that he can destroy both soul and body in Hell). Then there are legions of Christians that don't even believe in hell as imaginatively described.

Heaven isn't about Hell isn't about forgiveness/reward for something we've done. It's a matter of repentance and acceptance. All who repent and accept are forgiven, those that don't obviously don't care about being forgiven and are relinquished to their lot.

It's your fantasy, tacky. You can make it be whatever you want it to be.

Everything except real, that is.

[reverendjeremiah]

Well, it looks like Tack is one of those "Lord of Hell" types.

[DeistPaladin]

DP, by my definition as a Christian, teacher and that of my fellow Christians I've worship with for almost 20 years with; Hell is eternal, the punishment isn't. Hard to continuously punish someone when they're destroyed.

Point taken. My sincere apologies for painting with too broad a brush.

... any Christian who denies otherwise ignores the very clear wording of Jesus (that he can destroy both soul and body in Hell).

Really? Bold emphasis mine:

Luke 16:22-31 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried; And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame. But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented. And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence. Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house: For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment. Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them. And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent. And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

[Cinjin]

[quote='tackattack' pid='133812' dateline='1304441002']

... any Christian who denies otherwise ignores the very clear wording of Jesus (that he can destroy both soul and body in Hell).

Really? Bold emphasis mine:

Luke 16:22-31 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried; And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame. But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented. And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence. Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house: For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment. Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them. And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent. And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

It also implies that those suffering souls in hell can be viewed by those who have been saved and vice versa. I gotta tell you, that would make my eternity in heaven far less enjoyable! To know that I can see my grandfather, uncle, or daughter burning in agony while I attempt to enjoy a life of leisure wouldn't sit well with me.

Even after all is said and done, and everyone is in their appropriate afterlife their god still wants to remind everyone of his maniacal sadistic ego - by allowing both sides to witness the afterlife of the other.

Why anyone would sign up for such idiocy is beyond my comprehension.