Evidence for Jesus Christ?

[DeistPaladin]

The closest kind of evidence we have would be an ossuary claimed to be that of James, the brother of Jesus. Even if it is an authentic first-century ossuary...

It's not. The jury isn't still out on this issue. In fact, the verdict came down some time ago. The inscription was a fake and the perp is now in jail.

[reverendjeremiah]

You don't have to convince me of anything. My opinion of your acceptance of Christ has no bearing on your personal salvation.

At least you admit that. Most Christians insist they know the will of their deity..and you would NEVER go that far.

As far as acceptance and relationship. I'll further your comparison to a gift. If I give you a gift for your birthday do you haveto open it? No. Can you claim it's actually your gift without accepting it from me? Not really. I can offer gifts to you all day long and you doin't have to open or use any of them. It's not your gift though until you can accept it. You could accept it take it from my hands and throw it in the trash, if you like. It's yours and once you accept it you can do with it what you like.

Will you please stop comparing "gift of forgiveness" with "Material gift". Do you honestly think that forgiveness is something you wrap up and hand to someone? Come on Tack, I have read your posts, you are pretty smart about things. So if I dont accept your forgiveness...then what? You no longer forgive me?

Then I deduce that you never really forgave me in the first place.

Fear of punishment (how would you fear nothing?), long for reward(no one knows what awaits absolutlely, so why bother wishing?) or any form of applied force isn't how or why I worship, nor do I advocate. You're right though, those that teach that those things matter are using coersion. I however don't think that it's a blanket involuntary coersion which is in your definition. I don't think anyone is forcing you to go to church to accept Jesus, and if they are they're wrong in my book. It's most certainly not blackmail. People may feel it is because they were hellfired & brimstoned out of the church, but really what would an all powerful omnipotent being really need from us?

Tack, my understanding of the bible says that Hell is eternal punishment in flames. You are trying to say the punishment is nothing and expecting me to see it from your personal point of view. Hell is very much an eternal flaming lake of fire no matter how much you try to convince me otherwise. I have told you this several times yet you still insist that it isnt.

As far as absurdism, I claim 0 knowledge of absurdism or it's adherents, it was a baseless assertion and a poor joke.

Thats okay..I figured as much..besides, anytime I can plug it is fine with me.

As far as your claim of acceptance, if you claim it's been offered and you accepted it, doesn't that imply that you believe Jesus exists, has a deistic role and has the power to offer forgiveness? Wouldn't that make you a theist? As you've not changed your claim of atheism I doubt you could actually support your logical acceptance genuinely.

Then please explain to me how you can ask and accept forgiveness from a fictional character named Jesus?

When you answer that, then you will know my answer as well.

P.S. - what does acceptance have to do with logic..as in "logical acceptance"? Can I not accept something that is also illogical?

[Nathanael]

It's not. The jury isn't still out on this issue. In fact, the verdict came down some time ago. The inscription was a fake and the perp is now in jail.

This is news to me! Where did you read about it? I've just done a Google search but nothing is coming up.

[reverendjeremiah]

The closest kind of evidence we have would be an ossuary claimed to be that of James, the brother of Jesus. Even if it is an authentic first-century ossuary...

It's not. The jury isn't still out on this issue. In fact, the verdict came down some time ago. The inscription was a fake and the perp is now in jail.

..and I am glad he is in jail for such an offense.

[Napoléon]

What are you referring to by the word "Jesus"? By your exclusion of the Biblical (i.e. New Testament) documents, do you mean to imply that they provide evidence for Jesus' existence or not?

Don't be a smart arse you know exactly what i'm referring to. What i'm saying is, is give me evidence OTHER THAN THE BIBLE that jesus existed.

We sadly don't have archaeological evidence for most ancient people, which is just the nature of ancient history. We do not have any writings of any rabbis in the first century (apart from possibly the Apostle Paul, who would be a rather unique case anyway). A piece of carpentry with the name 'Jesus' on it would really prove very little, since there were doubtless plenty of people called Jesus (which was a common name in 1st century Palestine) who were also carpenters. The closest kind of evidence we have would be an ossuary claimed to be that of James, the brother of Jesus. Even if it is an authentic first-century ossuary, it is quite possible (though perhaps unlikely) that there existed some other James whose brother was Jesus and whose father was Joseph.

Well then i guess there's no reason for anyone to believe in the shit in the bible then is there. Saying that 'it's just the nature of ancient history' that we can't provide evidence for a persons existance is not a get out clause which suddenly validates the bible. Maybe i'm jumping the gun and that's not what you're insinuating, but frankly there are thousands of documents which refer to gods and angels etc so why should the bible be so special without any evidence backing up it's claims?

As for the ossuary i see someone else has already delt with that.

NEXT

[Minimalist]

It's not. The jury isn't still out on this issue. In fact, the verdict came down some time ago. The inscription was a fake and the perp is now in jail.

This is news to me! Where did you read about it? I've just done a Google search but nothing is coming up.

Whether or not Oded Golan can be convicted legally is still up in the air because he may not have actually done the forgery himself. The hand holding the chisel seems to have been an Egyptian who is beyond the reach of Israeli courts and who wisely declined to go to Israel to testify.

But the inscription is a forgery.

http://www.archaeology.org/online/news/patina.html

Avner Ayalon, determined that the patina covering both the letters and surface of the Jehoash Inscription, as well as the inscription on the James Ossuary, "could not have formed under natural climactic conditions...that prevailed in the Judea Mountains during the last 2000 years." Furthermore, the patina contained in the inscription on the James Ossuary is "significantly different from the oxygen isotopic composition in the surface patina of [the ossuary] and of patina of authentic ossuaries stored in [Jerusalem's] Rockefeller Museum." An internal GSI committee reviewed and approved Dr. Ayalon's conclusions.

[RDK]

Are any of you under the opinion that Jesus came to this world to condemn us? John 3-17, For God sent not His son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.
There is a key point that Jesus tried to teach concerning condemnation. Essentially, guilt is the source of the problem to begin with. If we could live our lives without ever doing something contrary to that which we know is true, we would never be guilty. But since everyone has done something, or lots o somethings, we are guilty of actions with which we have no ability to remove. The hell that has been figuratively described as a place of torture, thirst, fire and brimstone, etc. is a physical way to demonsrate something which is truly dealing with the issues of our conscience. We created the pain of guilt by doing those things which we knew that we should not have done. Jesus does not cast you into a place of misery. You are there already! You are not guilty because Jesus wants to watch you fry. You are in misery because you have realized that the one you have hurt the most is the one who loves you the most, the one who said I forgive you for what you did. Jesus saved us from the condemnation of our own guilt. Think about this. How fair would it be for God to throw someone in an oven? Would that make you learn to love God more? Of course it would not. The idea of that can only make you angry at God. We are given choices to make about our course in this world. We are condemned by our conscience when presented by the facts about the real love that God always had for us. Jesus was called saviour because he came to tell us that God loved us anyway. God understands our shame, and He wants us to know that He still loves us. That has been the forgiveness message all along. The law is what has condemned man. If you have never been told that it is wrong to murder someone, then you would never be condemned by doing that. But, if you are told that it is wrong to kill, then you are condemned already at that moment. The guilt has been thoroughly established immediately. For those who do not yet feel any remorse, that will happen when God is finally revealed to you at your death. You wil then realize that the harm you did to others really was right in front of the one who loved you. You hurt your own brothers and sisters, and you disappointed the one who loved you the most.
If God were the one to cast you away, how could he come back to you later and say I love you. That one would be a liar.

[thesummerqueen]

Are any of you under the opinion that Jesus came to this world to condemn us? John 3-17, For God sent not His son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.
There is a key point that Jesus tried to teach concerning condemnation. Essentially, guilt is the source of the problem to begin with. If we could live our lives without ever doing something contrary to that which we know is true, we would never be guilty. But since everyone has done something, or lots o somethings, we are guilty of actions with which we have no ability to remove. The hell that has been figuratively described as a place of torture, thirst, fire and brimstone, etc. is a physical way to demonsrate something which is truly dealing with the issues of our conscience. We created the pain of guilt by doing those things which we knew that we should not have done. Jesus does not cast you into a place of misery. You are there already! You are not guilty because Jesus wants to watch you fry. You are in misery because you have realized that the one you have hurt the most is the one who loves you the most, the one who said I forgive you for what you did. Jesus saved us from the condemnation of our own guilt. Think about this. How fair would it be for God to throw someone in an oven? Would that make you learn to love God more? Of course it would not. The idea of that can only make you angry at God. We are given choices to make about our course in this world. We are condemned by our conscience when presented by the facts about the real love that God always had for us. Jesus was called saviour because he came to tell us that God loved us anyway. God understands our shame, and He wants us to know that He still loves us. That has been the forgiveness message all along. The law is what has condemned man. If you have never been told that it is wrong to murder someone, then you would never be condemned by doing that. But, if you are told that it is wrong to kill, then you are condemned already at that moment. The guilt has been thoroughly established immediately. For those who do not yet feel any remorse, that will happen when God is finally revealed to you at your death. You wil then realize that the harm you did to others really was right in front of the one who loved you. You hurt your own brothers and sisters, and you disappointed the one who loved you the most.
If God were the one to cast you away, how could he come back to you later and say I love you. That one would be a liar.

Guilt is relative. Levels of guilt can change based on your perspective of what you did and its effects.

I need no man, prophet, or god to die for my "sins". If I think I'm going to regret what I did, I don't fucking do it. No one needs to be my whipping boy. That's called forethought and responsibility.

I also don't need a "law" to tell me not to commit certain "sins" - I have natural compassion and empathy for my fellow human beings.

I'm really sick of these circular and ridiculous arguments.

[Napoléon]

---

Are any of you under the opinion that Jesus came to this world to condemn us? John 3-17, For God sent not His son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.
There is a key point that Jesus tried to teach concerning condemnation. Essentially, guilt is the source of the problem to begin with. If we could live our lives without ever doing something contrary to that which we know is true, we would never be guilty. But since everyone has done something, or lots o somethings, we are guilty of actions with which we have no ability to remove. The hell that has been figuratively described as a place of torture, thirst, fire and brimstone, etc. is a physical way to demonsrate something which is truly dealing with the issues of our conscience. We created the pain of guilt by doing those things which we knew that we should not have done. Jesus does not cast you into a place of misery. You are there already! You are not guilty because Jesus wants to watch you fry. You are in misery because you have realized that the one you have hurt the most is the one who loves you the most, the one who said I forgive you for what you did. Jesus saved us from the condemnation of our own guilt. Think about this. How fair would it be for God to throw someone in an oven? Would that make you learn to love God more? Of course it would not. The idea of that can only make you angry at God. We are given choices to make about our course in this world. We are condemned by our conscience when presented by the facts about the real love that God always had for us. Jesus was called saviour because he came to tell us that God loved us anyway. God understands our shame, and He wants us to know that He still loves us. That has been the forgiveness message all along. The law is what has condemned man. If you have never been told that it is wrong to murder someone, then you would never be condemned by doing that. But, if you are told that it is wrong to kill, then you are condemned already at that moment. The guilt has been thoroughly established immediately. For those who do not yet feel any remorse, that will happen when God is finally revealed to you at your death. You wil then realize that the harm you did to others really was right in front of the one who loved you. You hurt your own brothers and sisters, and you disappointed the one who loved you the most.
If God were the one to cast you away, how could he come back to you later and say I love you. That one would be a liar.

---

You know those mushrooms at the back of your garden that the local pigeons have been shitting on?

STOP EATING THEM!


And also can you at least put SOME effort into making your posts more readable.

[Minimalist]

Are any of you under the opinion that Jesus came to this world to condemn us?

There was no fucking jesus.....it's made up shit like every other religion. You are on your own boy. You have no invisible friend helping you.

Grow up.