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RE: I am about to ask a serious but utterly reprehensible question
January 31, 2017 at 2:08 pm
No, no. Someone who's been religiously indoctrinated into any religion has had their mind violated. The damage is done. Moving from one delusion to another is not very surprising.
Out of all those statistics, how many of those people weren't indoctrinated at all? That is what I was talking about. Of course, nailing this information exactly is difficult.
But absolutely. If people stopped indoctrinating their children into religion in general, all the current religions would be dead very quickly. In perhaps 1-2 generations or so. It's all that keeps them going, since they have no basis in reality.
Feel free to send me a private message.
Please visit my website here! It's got lots of information about atheism/theism and support for new atheists.
RE: I am about to ask a serious but utterly reprehensible question
January 31, 2017 at 2:21 pm (This post was last modified: January 31, 2017 at 2:24 pm by The Grand Nudger.)
(January 31, 2017 at 9:47 am)SteveII Wrote: That was Calvin's opinion. Most denominations (including most Calvinist leaning ones) believe that children are not judged until they are reach a point where God judges they understand.
Are you telling me that people in denominations often do not believe in their own denominations religious teachings, let alone the bible? I'm shocked, positively shocked........
Quote:Your "For all have sinned and fallen short of the Glory of God" quote is correct. You are simply describing a state. It is not just any sin that sends you to hell, it is the rejection of God that sends you to hell. The "age of accountability" goes hand in hand with the answer to the question about what if a person never hears about Jesus and his death/resurrection? God will judge him/her based on their response of what he has made know to them.
The age of accountability goes hand in hand with your modern, secular laws. There is no such age of accountability for sin in scripture or any denominations official positions. These questions don;t go hand in hand, ofc, you'd be hard pressed to find an example of a kid in the us who hasn't heard of jesus...but as to the question you asked in deflecton, is it an open question? Do pagan idolaters go to heaven? Based upon what...their moral fortitude....lol?
Quote:I am not Catholic but would like to know the basis for your "child could be damned" assertion.
Same place you get anything about catholicism......? Catechism.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
RE: I am about to ask a serious but utterly reprehensible question
January 31, 2017 at 3:02 pm (This post was last modified: January 31, 2017 at 3:02 pm by The Grand Nudger.)
Before I watch.....is it going to be more than "morality is just, like, your opinion, man"?
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
RE: I am about to ask a serious but utterly reprehensible question
January 31, 2017 at 3:48 pm
(January 30, 2017 at 4:46 pm)SteveII Wrote:
(January 28, 2017 at 6:29 pm)Astonished Wrote:
In all genuine honesty...and I just came up with this today, and someone making a threat about hell in one of the threads convinced me it has to be asked. Please, don't hate me, this is not done out of malice or perversion, and is simply a ghastly version of a reductio ad absurdum.
To any person who will tell a child that they are a miserable sinner and deserving of an eternity of fiery torment - regardless of how easy they claim it will be to avoid this (and remember, you still deserve it, you've just been given undeserved mercy via salvation, right? You're still scum but they let you into the country club) - what is stopping you from saying that child deserves to be, say, raped? Surely flesh-searing torment without end is a worse fate, and surely some lava-skinned demon down there is going to get their hands on you at some point, right? So why would you say one and not the other, if one is far, far worse and yet can't be experienced on earth?
I expect the answers will disregard the fact that we are disregarding salvation, and be flimsy excuses at best rather than actual answers. If this does not prove once and for all anyone who ever introduces the concept of hell to a child is no different from a predator, nothing will.
If this was a step too far, just delete it. I'm so disgusted with religious people right now, I can't even separate them from their faith.
This is a non-starter.
Why would any Christian tell a child he/she is a terrible sinner and deserving of an eternity of fiery torment? No Christian denomination that I know of believes that that child is accountable for their sins until some "age of accountability" where they can understand such things. Only God could know when a person is to be culpable for their sins. In some cases, a person's mental disabilities might prevent that from happening their whole life.
The rest of your reasoning is nonsense and your conclusions faulty.
Bolded line: I lived it. I was told that I was a child of the devil every day of my life and the only thing that would keep me from going to hell was Bible reading and prayer. Lots of prayer. And you had to tell Jesus every day that you believed in him and you had to thank him every day for saving you from hell. This is common in Pentecostal circles.
"The family that prays together...is brainwashing their children."- Albert Einstein
RE: I am about to ask a serious but utterly reprehensible question
January 31, 2017 at 6:09 pm (This post was last modified: January 31, 2017 at 6:11 pm by Cecelia.)
Proof morality is subjective:
God killed 75,000 people over a census.
EITHER:
A. This act is immoral, and therefore God is immoral (Objective morality cannot come from a god who does not act morally at all times, ergo there is no such thing as objective morality)
B. This act is moral, and therefore it would be okay for someone to kill 75,000 people over a census (Calling Dr. Lecter, Calling Dr. Lecter. Fava Beans and a nice chianti are waiting for you in your car)
C. This act is immoral for people, but moral for God--meaning morality is subjective.
The whole tone of Church teaching in regard to woman is, to the last degree, contemptuous and degrading. - Elizabeth Cady Stanton
RE: I am about to ask a serious but utterly reprehensible question
January 31, 2017 at 11:34 pm
(January 31, 2017 at 6:09 pm)Cecelia Wrote: Proof morality is subjective:
God killed 75,000 people over a census.
EITHER:
A. This act is immoral, and therefore God is immoral (Objective morality cannot come from a god who does not act morally at all times, ergo there is no such thing as objective morality)
B. This act is moral, and therefore it would be okay for someone to kill 75,000 people over a census (Calling Dr. Lecter, Calling Dr. Lecter. Fava Beans and a nice chianti are waiting for you in your car)
C. This act is immoral for people, but moral for God--meaning morality is subjective.
They are presented with a literally no-win scenario and still think they're right. Un. Fucking. Believable.
Religions were invented to impress and dupe illiterate, superstitious stone-age peasants. So in this modern, enlightened age of information, what's your excuse? Or are you saying with all your advantages, you were still tricked as easily as those early humans?
---
There is no better way to convey the least amount of information in the greatest amount of words than to try explaining your religious views.
RE: I am about to ask a serious but utterly reprehensible question
January 31, 2017 at 11:45 pm
(January 31, 2017 at 9:47 am)SteveII Wrote:
I'm just telling you what most Christians denominations believe. Sorry it does not fit into your narrative of what is wrong with Christianity.
Your 8 year old baptism example does not make your point. Baptism is an public affirmation of salvation. Of course the question will be does she believe Jesus is her personal savior and died of her sins--you just defined being a Christian. If you didn't think she understood such a thing, she had no business the subject of believer's baptism.
Actually, it's just one of the things I find wrong with Christianity. So, it most certainly does fit my narrative. Furthermore, it is exactly what most christian denominations believe. I've been introduced to many kinds from the time I was little up until well into adulthood and many believe the same thing.
The only reason why you say my story doesn't make my point is because you'd rather not admit that I'm right about your religion. She was 8, so again, what sort of sins did she commit at that age, that were so damming that she needed a personal savior?
Honestly, you ignored the very point I and others, have made here.
Disclaimer: I am only responsible for what I say, not what you choose to understand.
(November 14, 2018 at 8:57 pm)The Valkyrie Wrote: Have a good day at work. If we ever meet in a professional setting, let me answer your question now. Yes, I DO want fries with that.
RE: I am about to ask a serious but utterly reprehensible question
February 1, 2017 at 12:33 am
I refuse to debate various doctrines like eternal conscious torment, annihilation, or universalism with atheists. With all due respect Drich, Steve, and RR79, the scriptures as best as I can tell are indeterminate about the ultimate fate of the unrighteous. I've heard good arguments and proof texts supporting each position. The important thing is that His work on the Cross has delivered the faithful from whatever dire fate awaits the unrepentant. I truly feel sad for Astonished. He or she seems badly damaged by an abusive church. That appears to happen all to frequently.
