I Used To Be A Fan But I Am Now Shocked, Disgusted And Appalled With Sam Harris

[Edwardo Piet]

I think the term liberal is usually used in a less literal sense.  Left wing people who try and stop opposing views being expressed are often called "So called liberals" or the term liberals is used sarcastically.

Not literally to describe a group of people who have ideas of liberty and equality.

Although I think there is a catch that liberals might justify themselves as being liberal and shutting down someone else's freedom of speech by saying that the person expressing themselves, using their freedom of speech, is a Nazi who is trying to influence people in a way that would be a threat to the liberty and equality of the general public.

My bold.

Well, by liberal that's literally what I mean.

I don't mean whoever happens to identity as liberal even if they aren't actually behaving liberally and successfully promoting liberal values.

My point is that we need more liberalism... and the problem with the "extreme-left" is that they're not actually liberal they just identify as liberal. They may be liberal in some respects but they certainly behave very authoritarian when they try to shut down free-speech.

What's the solution to this pseudo-liberal authoritarianism? Less authoritarianism and more liberalism.

So-called liberals indeed. So-called extreme left. There's nothing extreme about liberalism. There's nothing liberal about trying to shut down free speech in the name of political correctness.

Trying to shut down free speech is an authoritarian thing to do which is right-wing, not left-wing.

---

That's not really what I meant. You said yourself, that you were a fan of Sam Harris, but now that you've heard him say something questionable, you're not just not a fan anymore, you're calling him a bigot. Clearly this is important and a big deal to you, since you made this long winded rant about it, or at least you feel strongly about it. Bigot is a pretty strong word and the way you're using it feels like saying 'he's one of them'. So you used to like him and now that you think he holds an opinion you disagree with, you think of him like a bad person. I don't know if this is clearer.

It depends what you mean by "bad person".

I have love in my heart for everyone, and empathy for everyone, even the worst people. Hell, I hold Sam Harris' view in that regard... because I believe there is no free will it allows compassion to open up for even the worst people.

I'm venting as a form of self-relief and to express my frustration, disgust and disappointment with the ignorant opinions I have recently learned he holds. Those opinions are clearly bigoted.

He's far from a bad person if we're talking about his intentions. I think he's a very good person and also a very intelligent person and he was my intellectual hero because his logic is incredible (although he seems to have completely failed to see that the conscious barrier makes the aggregation of utility between individuals in utilitarianism impossible).

But I no longer want to be associated with or can really "like" a person who holds such bigoted viewpoints.

It just upsets me too much. There is absolutely no hatred this side.

I know I often come off as hateful, but I'm really not. I'm not even angry. Not even remotely. I'm just expressing my frustration, disappointment and upset rather aggressively and swearing and ranting a lot because it makes me feel better when something like this upsets me so much.

I didn't intend to be. But it did come over like that. See your other post. You said sweet old bigoted ladies aren't sweet. That came across to me like denying their other aspects.

You're being very nice to me right now and very understanding and I thank you for that.

I'm sorry I called you condescending. Yeah, it did come across that way but I appreciate it that you didn't intend it for it to be that way

I meant the bigoted aspect to them isn't sweet. Of course they can be sweet in other ways. I think Sam Harris is very compassionate person in many many ways. It's silly of me perhaps to throw the baby out with the bathwater and yes that is essentially what I am doing.

But it really is just a case of high standards here. I can't associate myself with someone who holds bigoted opinions.

Again, I didn't intend to be condescending.

That's good. Thank you

I pointed out what I thought was the cause of the problem described in this thread in your thinking.

Thank you for trying to help

The way I characterized you is how you honestly came across to me in this thread

Which is fine

If I am wrong, I'm sorry.

No need to be sorry. We're all allowed to be wrong

I am sorry I responded to you so belligerently and defensively.

It was just the impression I got.

Which is fine

I see that this is an emotional topic for you, so maybe let's end this here. Perhaps I misunderstood you, you misunderstood me, or even more likely, both.

Yeah. Both

[J a c k]

I don't like racists. At all. None. Zero. I have zero tolerance. If a person is racist, yet they're a good parent, I don't give a fuck. I don't like them and we can't be friends. I'm black and white in that aspect. If a person is a bully to lgbt, they're out of my tolerance zone, too. Zero. So, I get it when people get passionate. I just want to be sure I'm not mistaken when I think someone is what I think they are. I've learned that's not always the case.

And I tried very hard to interpret the above clip in a way that didn't make Sam Harris out to be an obvious transpbobe what with him not only being complicit while Murray was saying all that transphobic shit, but also laughing at it like it was funny.

I tried so hard to interpret Sam Harris as not being bigoted.

Believe me, I really really tried... I've been a huge fan of Sam Harris since 2009,  he's been my favorite public intellectual until literally yesterday when I watched this clip. I really tried. But saying he's not a bigot after this would be like staring at a spade and calling it a taco.

I used "taco"v as an example just for you

There are people who are not homophobic, but don't mind being cool with homophobes and will not stop them from saying their homophobic comments. There are people who aren't racist, yet hang out with racists. There are people who aren't bigots, yet have bigot friends. In my personal taste, I don't like to have a friendship with people who tolerate these things. I don't like to know my friend will laugh at racist comments or homophobic rants. I'm getting old. Lol! I choose my friends to my taste, dammit. I can do that. It's great. I don't need to waste my time with people I don't like. I've had this conversation before here. People said I don't accept differences in beliefs. Fine. Whatever. I have friends with ideas that don't match my own, but I will never tolerate bigotry. So, I get you, Hammy. We just need to be careful when we label people. I learned this. A person might not be a bigot, yet not give a fuck if others are. They might not be homophobic, yet they enable homophobics to spread their hate. I choose not to break bread with them not because they're bigots, but because they enable those who are.

When it comes to politics, it's different. I can be picky with my friends, because it doesn't affect our healthcare, laws, wars, relationships with allies, etc. With politics I can't sit there and be like, nope. Not absolutely pure and perfect. We need to win. It's less passionate and more rational. But what do I know. I'm just ranting an internet rant right now and am probably not making any sense. Lol! Hug, Hammy.  

[Edwardo Piet]

If you comb through anyone's words deep enough you can always find a situation where they said something off, made or laughed at the wrong joke. Finding a couple of such incidents through a person's life proves absolutely nothing about that person. But go ahead and trash those people's entire lives if it makes you feel righteous.

Dude... he hosted a podcast with a guy spewing the most ignorant bullshit against transgender people and he not only was completely complicit but he laughed through it and said it was hilarious.

Yes, we've all had low points in our life. I used to be homophobic until I was 16 because I had a highly homophobic father who was a serious helicopter parent and he pushed his homophobic views onto me from when I was a young age.

I was only 16 but I still wouldn't have anything to do with my 16 year old self if I now met my past self back when I used to be a bigot.

We all have our low points. And until Sam Harris learns how bigoted he is on gender issues I'm not interested in him. I have higher standards than that. And it's my choice who I associate myself with.

There is no hatred, no retribution, no blame. I simply don't wish to be associated with bigoted fuckwits. I know it's not the bigot's fault they're a bigot, but they're still a bigot I don't want to be associated with.

[Autumnlicious]

Everyone has a big turd fly out of their mouth periodically, its just a matter of what kind and how they recover it (if ever).

I'll let many things pass if one walks back later and disowns it fully. I know what it's like to be an angry ape in a rather tone deaf universe. I also note when others embrace shit easily.

That's why forgiving Nazis is a no-go, but ex-Nazis, maybe. It's a matter of context and face.

I remember lionizing PZ Myers and the other New Atheists. He became increasingly toxic and mean - a bully. Bullies don't stand up for others, they only think of themselves. So I walked away from my youthful adulation to find my own path.

I disagree with SteelCurtain on this topic. No one is entitled to your trust or belief. Not even the Great Sam Harris. Nor is it a personal identifiable failure to discover you don't like it when a metaphorical turd flies out of their mouths. I have not observed you advocate for penalizing Sam Harris - deciding you really don't like someone is not a punishment.

Just remember that there are varying degrees of faith, bigotry that have varying degrees of time and stickiness. Which means sometimes it's salvageable, sometimes not and sometimes it doesn't matter. Life has many opportunities for improvement.

[Edwardo Piet]

There are people who are not homophobic, but don't mind being cool with homophobes and will not stop them from saying their homophobic comments.

I'm sure there are.

I used to be much more tolerant. I used to live with racists who made my life hell because I was sick of hearing their bigoted crap. But I had to because it was where I lived. Since living alone I've felt so free and realized it's my choice who I associate myself with now.

There are people who aren't racist, yet hang out with racists.

Yeah. I used to hang out with everyone and tried to get along with everyone and be everyone's friend. I can't do that anymore.

There are people who aren't bigots, yet have bigot friends.

Yep. I used to try and be everyone's friend.

I still have love in my heart for everyone and compassion for the whole world... but nowadays there are many people I can't stomach having a personal friendship with. They have to be at least decent.

In my personal taste, I don't like to have a friendship with people who tolerate these things.

Same. I used to be different but I can't do it anymore.

I don't like to know my friend will laugh at racist comments or homophobic rants.

Same.

I'm getting old. Lol! I choose my friends to my taste, dammit.

Same.

I can do that.

Same.

It's great.

It is!

I don't need to waste my time with people I don't like.

Same here!

I've had this conversation before here. People said I don't accept differences in beliefs. Fine. Whatever.

I'll accept differences of beliefs... but not if those beliefs are bigoted.

I have friends with ideas that don't match my own, but I will never tolerate bigotry

Same!

. So, I get you, Hammy. We just need to be careful when we label people. I learned this. A person might not be a bigot, yet not give a fuck if others are.

Sure. You know me... I just say what I think. When I think someone is a bigot I call them a bigot. It's not like I don't wait for them to show it first.

They might not be homophobic, yet they enable homophobics to spread their hate.

That makes them as bad as a homophobe, for me.

I choose not to break bread with them not because they're bigots, but because they enable those who are.

Same. And this is why I am disgusted with Sam Harris. Even if he doesn't share those views he laughed along with it like it was perfectly fine even though these are serious issues and he should have realized that his guest was making his podcast look disgusting... it wasn't funny or entertaining or clever or true or right. And he just keeps agreeing with this guy. Why he even likes this guy or has him on his show... I don't know. Well, I do know now. Because he holds the same bigoted views on gender. He thinks gender is about what genitals you are born with and he thinks transgender people are "weirdos".

When it comes to politics, it's different. I can be picky with my friends, because it doesn't affect our healthcare, laws, wars, relationships with allies, etc. With politics I can't sit there and be like, nope. Not absolutely pure and perfect. We need to win.

Well yeah... I don't think being extreme left causes you to vote for someone even more left-wing than Hilary though. I think you could be as far left as possible and like Jill best but realize that Trump was a million times worse and far more right wing than Hilary, and you'd vote for Hilary in order to avoid the lesser evil.

I think it's the stupid-left, not the extreme-left, who vote for Jill rather than Hilary.

Well, actually that's a little harsh. They're not necessarily stupid but they're unwise and lacking in common sense.

The point is, it has nothing to do with their liberalism. It's just people on the left who have high standards but have their priorities wrong and rationality screwed.

I bet I could hold as extreme left views as possible and still realize that the lesser evil is the better option if they are the only one who has a chance at defeating the greater evil.

It's less passionate and more rational.

^^^Yes^^^^

I don't think being extremely left politically makes someone less rational. I think it's having high standards instead of sensible priorities that makes someone less rational.

But what do I know. I'm just ranting an internet rant right now and am probably not making any sense. Lol! Hug, Hammy.  

Hug!

[Crunchy]

If you comb through anyone's words deep enough you can always find a situation where they said something off, made or laughed at the wrong joke. Finding a couple of such incidents through a person's life proves absolutely nothing about that person. But go ahead and trash those people's entire lives if it makes you feel righteous.

Dude... he hosted a podcast with a guy spewing the most ignorant bullshit against transgender people and he not only was completely complicit but he laughed through it and said it was hilarious.

Or he was laughing at the political incorrectness and the exaggerated examples of a regressive left as he indicated and his laughter had nothing to do with trans people being weirdo's. That's a possibility since there are no actual words from Harris that would indicate a deep seated hatred of trans people. 

Also, I'm glad that people like he and Maher have guests on from the opposite side of the spectrum and treat them with respect even as they disagree with them. Not living in an echo chamber is a good thing.

[Edwardo Piet]

I don't think he has a hatred of transpeople. I think he has ignorant views on gender because he was laughing along at expressions of ignorant views on gender.

He's not on the opposite side of the political spectrum from Harris. They strongly agree on many issues and are good friends. People keep talking as if Murray was some kind of rival or that Harris was laughing at the stupidity of what he was saying. Far from it. They're in strong agreement about all this stuff.

This was not a guest he "disagreed with"......... Watch the rest of the podcast.

---

Everyone has a big turd fly out of their mouth periodically, its just a matter of what kind and how they recover it (if ever).

I'll let many things pass if one walks back later and disowns it fully. I know what it's like to be an angry ape in a rather tone deaf universe. I also note when others embrace shit easily.

That's why forgiving Nazis is a no-go, but ex-Nazis, maybe. It's a matter of context and face.

I remember lionizing PZ Myers and the other New Atheists. He became increasingly toxic and mean - a bully. Bullies don't stand up for others, they only think of themselves. So I walked away from my youthful adulation to find my own path.

I disagree with SteelCurtain on this topic. No one is entitled to your trust or belief. Not even the Great Sam Harris. Nor is it a personal identifiable failure to discover you don't like it when a metaphorical turd flies out of their mouths. I have not observed you advocate for penalizing Sam Harris - deciding you really don't like someone is not a punishment.

Just remember that there are varying degrees of faith, bigotry that have varying degrees of time and stickiness. Which means sometimes it's salvageable, sometimes not and sometimes it doesn't matter. Life has many opportunities for improvement.

Yeah, I agree 100% here. If he later apologizes for being so complicit and laughing along rather than standing up against such crap spewed against transgender people, if he apologized for at least seeming to be endorsing such ignorance on gender issues... then I would no longer dislike him.

But until them, I dislike him.

And indeed, my dislking Harris and no longer being a fan of him is not "punishment". Describing it as "personal punishment" or "retributive" is utterly absurd. It's not punishing someone by exercising my own free speech. Suggesting that no longer liking someone or being a fan of them equates to me being unfair and unjustly trying to punish someone seems more like a way of trying to discourage me from expressing my own opinions. Rather ironic really.

[Crunchy]

I don't think he has a hatred of transpeople. I think he has ignorant views on gender because he was laughing along at expressions of ignorant views on gender.

He's not on the opposite side of the political spectrum from Harris. They strongly agree on many issues and are good friends. People keep talking as if Murray was some kind of rival or that Harris was laughing at the stupidity of what he was saying. Far from it. They're in strong agreement about all this stuff.

This was not a guest he "disagreed with"......... Watch the rest of the podcast.

I watched much of the podcast and yes, they do agree on some matters. Specifically about the regressive left and that political correctness is a problem. Some republicans are actually married to Democrats like James Carville so I see no issue with being friends with someone with whom you disagree with in some areas. I will try looking into Douglas Murray some more as I had not heard of him before this. 

Harris has been the victim of an intentional smear campaign from the left where his words were purposefully misinterpreted and lies were spread about him so I think he is probably going to be friendly with people who disparage the regressive left and laugh at their jokes about political correctness. I don't see why it makes sense take the least charitable interpretation of a tiny part of a long conversation he had as proof positive that he is an ignorant bigot.

[The Grand Nudger]

@Crunchy

I bet it feels like that to a bigot, but, it would...wouldn't it?



Personally, bigotry isn't a deal breaker for me, regarding friendship. I'd have been a lonely, lonely person if it were. My bigoted buddies know that I think they're a bigot, I've got lots of jokes.

[Edwardo Piet]

Harris has been the victim of an intentional smear campaign from the left where his words were purposefully misinterpreted and lies were spread about him

I agree with all that.

so I think he is probably going to be friendly with people who disparage the regressive left and laugh at their jokes about political correctness.

Fair enough but laughing and agreeing with bigoted opinions on gender issues is bigoted.

I don't see why it makes sense take the least charitable interpretation of a tiny part of a long conversation he had as proof positive that he is an ignorant bigot.

It's not. It's his complicit laughter in the face of statements that transgender people are "weirdos" or men with penises, that makes him an ignorant bigot.

Sam is always willing to express his disagreement honestly, he's a champion of honestly, he wrote a whole book on how it's always wrong to lie. And yet he failed to tell Murray how wrong he was about gender issues. And how real and serious the issues Murray was trivializing was.

It's beyond obvious that both him and Murray think this is acceptable. It's far from funny. It's indefensible.

Least charitable interpretation my arse. I'm being as charitable as I possibly can. I've been a fan of Harris since 2009. He's been my favorite public intellectual for over 8 years. I tried very hard to see it any other way but to see it any other way would just be denying reality.