Conservative Atheism

[The Grand Nudger]

I hear alot of trumpsters say that..but then they tell me how much they love this or that terrible policy of the trumpster......so, I'm becoming a bit of a skeptic.  

I don't think they chose the lesser of two evils.  I think they picked exactly what they won't allow themselves to acknowledge their desire for - well..in polite company, at least.  When no one was looking, at the voting booth...no matter what they told their spouse or the poll taker - they pulled the lever they always knew they'd pull.

[Amarok]

I hear alot of trumpsters say that..but then they tell me how much they love this or that terrible policy of the trumpster......so, I'm becoming a bit of a skeptic.  

I don't think they chose the lesser of two evils.  I think they picked exactly what they won't allow themselves to acknowledge their desire for - well..in polite company, at least.  When no one was looking, at the voting booth...no matter what they told their spouse or the poll taker - they pulled the lever they always knew they'd pull.

Agreed they can harp all day about the reasons in public .But nothing speaks to there motivation harder then which lever they pulled . And it don't care who they voted for before .Who they voted for now speaks there values and who there willing to fuck over to achieve them. They bought Trump his movement and all it stands for .

[Joods]

Well thanks for tolerating me!

I am curious as to why you would want illegal immigrants allowed into the US, or allow them to stay.

Well, if my country were under attack by its own government and I was forced to flee my homeland, I would think that other countries would be welcoming. So, why not us? Tit for tat, I suppose. Besides, the white man pushed the Natives out of this country. What right do any of us have, really to keep anyone out?

However, there are many who use government services and do not pay taxes.

Sorry but I find this to be a myth. Unless you can show factual proof of your claim, a person simply cannot be an illegal immigrant in the US and  be on welfare or food stamps or have medical insurance or have section 8 housing. For every single one of those services, a social security number is needed. Are there private organizations that are willing to help out those less fortunate? Yes there are. But those aren't run by government employees. 

It is also common for illegal immigrants to be exploited by US companies, they often are paid less than legal immigrants or Americans for the same labor.
Employers do not have to pay workers comp for labor that is off the books, nor are they paying any health insurance (even if it is offered to other employees)
Granted this is probably a lot better than what they could get at home, but not up to our standards.
I would think you would be against this type of exploitation. (if they came here legally, or if the law was changed this could not happen)

Illegals are the ones who work the fields so that we can have fresh fruits and veggies at our tables. I can pretty much tell you that when the question comes up as to who among US citizens are willing to step up and take over those jobs out in hot fields all day, for hours on end, that illegals are willing to do, not a single person raises their hand. So - if you wanna kick all of them out, feel free, but know that you won't be eating fruits and vegetables at an affordable price anymore because farmers would now have to pay out minimum wage, offer half hour breaks and two fifteen minute breaks for any employee that works more than 8 hours a day, possibly pay overtime for more than 40 hours a week, they may have to offer health insurance, they will have to honor the FMLA for those employees with health issues or who have just become a parent etc. They will have to pay out UI and have to make sure taxes are taken out of every employee's paychecks and placed in an escrow account and pay it quarterly if wages are over a certain dollar amount. 

Your tomatoes that you buy for $2.39 a pound just increased to well over $7.00 a pound in order for the farmer to pay all those expenses and still make a profit. 

There are illegal immigrants who do pay federal and state taxes.  I think these people should be allowed to legally live in the US and there should be an available path to citizenship.

They are called LEGAL immigrants. They have the proper documentation to live and work here. That's not illegal. 

But until the law changes, I think it should be enforced.

I do not see the problem with a secure boarder, and enforced immigration law.
What other countries have open immigration?
Where can I move my family, use social services and pay no taxes?

Can we count on you and millions of others who feel this way to step up and start working the jobs that illegals do? Are you willing to do it for minimum wage, with no benefits and no other way of supporting your family? Believe it or not - illegal immigrants help keep prices down and help keep our economy from turning to shit. If you need reasons why, look at my reasons further above in this post. 

I certainly know that you do not wish immigration law to be enforced, but is that only for those currently in the US?
Or would you rather see us have an open border policy?

Like i said not trying to change your mind, I am legitimately curious as to why.

I briefly spelled out my concerns with the matter, I would like to know yours.

Common sense dictates that we need some form of immigration enforcement. No doubt. But people coming from Mexico are hardly the issue. They aren't threatening to bomb our citizens, or government buildings or any other US owned entities. They are hard working folks who want to give a better life to their families back home. For the vast majority - They are not the threat. 

The threats that we do have to this country are real. But I fail to see how building a wall is going to keep out threats that can simply fly over that wall, tunnel under that wall or put up a ladder against that wall. Incidentally, you don't hear Drumph talking about building a wall between Canada and the US, do you? Only Mexico. Drumph is a racist. And he's stupid because he has no idea of how much illegals contribute to the US economy. He also has no idea that fucking with the peaceful relations the US has with Mexico, will lead to further economic ruin for the US. Much of the fruits and vegetables and other products that the US gets from outside the border, comes from Mexico. If you've ever stopped to think about why we get "seasonal" fruits and veggies all year - thank the south. Where I live, I can only grow my favorite veggies during the spring and summer months. Crops don't fair well in the winter months. But it's nice to know that I can still eat carrots, potatoes, broccoli etc all year long thanks to our neighbors in the south. 


Also - what does this have to do with the topic of this thread?

[Harry Nevis]

you are talking about allowing a permanent underclass
A lot of illegals die just getting here.
When they do get here they are often exploited by unscrupulous employers

Employers who hire illegals, are competing at an unfair advantage and that artificially keeps profits and wages low.  Ask any legitimate roofing contractor what they think about illegal immigration, that industry has been all but gutted buy exploiting companies who pay immigrants far below market wage for their labor.  Illegals are paid very close to the same take home as regular labor, but the employer saves on not having to match SS, and med, and they are not paying withholding taxes on the illegals.  They are paid in cash, under the table.

The only reason this continues is that immigration law has not been enforced.

If illegal immigration were drastically slowed down, and the illegals deported we would see a labor shortage.  A labor shortage leads to decreased profits that leads to a lobby getting a law passed to allow immigrant labor into the US in some sort of a legal manner.

In the end we would still end up with large amounts of immigrant labor but they would not be exploited.

This happens when the law is followed, not when we exploit them.

I question anyone who voted for Trump and voices concern over immigrants.

[Amarok]

. I am curious as to why you would want illegal immigrants allowed into the US, or allow them to stay.

It's called compassion and human decency

However, there are many who use government services and do not pay taxes.

Myth and you can whine about taxes when your  billionaires pay there fair share for the benefit of living in the first world

It is also common for illegal immigrants to be exploited by US companies, they often are paid less than legal immigrants or Americans for the same labor.
Employers do not have to pay workers comp for labor that is off the books, nor are they paying any health insurance (even if it is offered to other employees)
Granted this is probably a lot better than what they could get at home, but not up to our standards.
I would think you would be against this type of exploitation. (if they came here legally, or if the law was changed this could not happen)

Which argues for getting rid of the shadow class not kicking the shadow class out .

There are illegal immigrants who do pay federal and state taxes. I think these people should be allowed to legally live in the US and there should be an available path to citizenship.

And sales tax

But until the law changes, I think it should be enforced.
I do not see the problem with a secure boarder, and enforced immigration law.
What other countries have open immigration?
Where can I move my family, use social services and pay no taxes?

Laws should be enforced on reason not because there laws .And no one said there should be no laws so you can drop that straw man . As for other countries irrelevant .

[Thumpalumpacus]

To be fair, there are indeed illegal aliens who pay income taxes, SSI, and so forth. They do so using originally-legitimate SSNs that were stolen or forged. I know this because as a business manager in SoCal I had to fire some once the facts came to light -- after they'd worked in my stores for six months or a year.

Of course, the fact that they were illegal also meant that they were very wary of applying for any gov't bennies, because any interaction with the gov't increased their risk of being caught.

The upshot? Most of those working under stolen ID paid into the system, but didn't claim any payouts.

It's been my experience that they were hard workers who never complained, rarely called out, and did as asked. I was sorry to have to fire many of them, because they were great workers ... much better workers than your average American hgh-school graduate (again, in my experience).