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RE: One sentence that throws the problem of evil out of the window.
November 7, 2017 at 1:12 pm
(November 7, 2017 at 9:11 am)MysticKnight Wrote: (November 7, 2017 at 9:10 am)Neo-Scholastic Wrote: To say yes to one moment is to say yes to all of life...or something like that.
Those are beautiful words, my friend!
Unfortunately, that's all they are. Words, whether you consider them beautiful or not, do little or nothing to alleviate suffering.
Empty platitudes are, well, empty.
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RE: One sentence that throws the problem of evil out of the window.
November 7, 2017 at 1:23 pm
(This post was last modified: November 7, 2017 at 1:40 pm by The Grand Nudger.)
So, let's say I have more money than I know what to do with...that I could buy anything..but the one thing I really..really want, is to take a child and flay off it's skin and paint smiley faces on the walls with it's blood. Maybe I'd burn the remains as incense, and bask in the glorious smell of charred flesh, like god is said to enjoy.
Let's say I found some family in Thirdworldistan with 20 kids, and zero dollars. Let's say that I offered them so much money they could buy Thirdworldistan with it, for just one of their twenty children. The sickest one. Or maybe the one they just didn't love as much as the others. Let's say they sold me a child...like people do.
Does the wonderful life that family gets to lead, or the fact that I sent the kid straight to jesus...that it was worth it, on multiple levels, for everyone involved....change the fact that I have done evil?
A simpler and more classical exposition of the same goes as follows; If the ends do not justify the means, then they do not excuse them either. So take a care, Pool...CL...Mystic...Neo...of exactly what it is you're saying with these platitudes. What you're foisting upon your own gods and making them culpable for. You;re not solving the problem of evil, you're just telling us that you don't care how evil x might be, to you..it's worth it.
Either all of the above had to happen that way to serve gods ends, or god..the most powerful being in the universe..sat, silently complicit, while it was done...where no decent human being would. There's no happy way out, either option makes your god as monstrous as some of you are idiotically claiming that atheists in this thread are...and that makes you, like your god, complicit. Actively complicit. Excusing in it what you would not accept, even in us, even in this thread.
The inanity of it all can;t even be fully appreciated, until we realize that no such crime has been committed..either by me -or- by your god...but you really wish it would have been. You really wish there was a god whose ends excuse such means - conversely, that -anything- can be justified by heaven. That there really was a god who sat at the tip of every offending peen. How's that for fucking evil, eh?
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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RE: One sentence that throws the problem of evil out of the window.
November 7, 2017 at 1:24 pm
(This post was last modified: November 7, 2017 at 1:26 pm by ErGingerbreadMandude.)
LadyForCamus Wrote:To me, raping children is wrong; is always wrong, but someone out there (probably some NAMBLA sicko) believes it's okay. That's what I mean by subjective morality.
Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong but if you really truly believe that raping children is just wrong plain and simple end of story, I think you consider it a objectively immoral act.
If we talk about subjective morality, it's about relativity and whatnot, like take stealing for example, if you had something stolen from you, you will think that it is objectively wrong but subjective morality argues that if you look at that act from a certain angle it is justifiable or that the act you thought was objectively wrong becomes subjectively moral from a certain viewpoint. I am of the opinion that no matter what angle you look at raping children, it NEVER becomes "subjectively moral"(not even close dude), so that's why I think it's a objectively immoral act.
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RE: One sentence that throws the problem of evil out of the window.
November 7, 2017 at 1:34 pm
(This post was last modified: November 7, 2017 at 1:39 pm by LadyForCamus.)
(November 7, 2017 at 1:24 pm)pool the matey Wrote: LadyForCamus Wrote:To me, raping children is wrong; is always wrong, but someone out there (probably some NAMBLA sicko) believes it's okay. That's what I mean by subjective morality.
Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong but if you really truly believe that raping children is just wrong plain and simple end of story, I think you consider it a objectively immoral act.
What I mean is, I say it's wrong, and the majority of humans with sufficient empathy agree with me, but someone, somewhere believes it's okay. To that person, a NAMBLA member perhaps, the act of having sex with a child is moral. In other words, what I believe is moral or immoral will most certainly differ from what NAMBLA member X believes. That's what I mean when I say subjective morality. I am only speaking for myself, ofc.
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RE: One sentence that throws the problem of evil out of the window.
November 7, 2017 at 1:38 pm
(This post was last modified: November 7, 2017 at 1:40 pm by ErGingerbreadMandude.)
Yup, I get what you're saying. People that engages in vile evil acts like that will certainly face judgment one day and when that day comes it won't matter to the slightest whether THEY think what they did was okay, the only thing that'll matter will be what they did and just that.
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RE: One sentence that throws the problem of evil out of the window.
November 7, 2017 at 1:38 pm
(This post was last modified: November 7, 2017 at 1:57 pm by Catholic_Lady.)
(November 7, 2017 at 12:31 pm)LadyForCamus Wrote: To me, raping children is wrong; is always wrong, but someone out there (probably some NAMBLA sicko) believes it's okay. That's what I mean by subjective morality. I'll say fuck that guy; lock him up and throw away the key, and he'll think he is being unjustly discriminated against, lol. That's why we have laws and legal ramifications for hurting people.
What you're saying above is that people have different beliefs about what is and is not wrong. No one is denying that lol. Obviously people have different beliefs about all sorts of things. But that's not what subjective morality means, at least not how I'm saying it.
As an example, subjective morality means there is no correct answer to the question: "Is it good or is it bad to rape and torture and kill little kids?"
In other words, it's no different from the question: "Is the mac and cheese I made last night good or bad?" There is no correct answer to that question because the answer just depends on the person's personal opinion and taste. That is subjective.
Objective morality means there IS a correct answer to the question: "Is it good or is it bad to rape and torture and kill little kids?" In which case the answer is a definite BAD. And anyone who says it's good, is wrong. They are incorrect. It's no different from the question: "Is the earth flat or is it round?" There will be people out there who believe the earth is flat, but they are wrong. The same way that someone who believes raping kids is good is wrong. That is objective.
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RE: One sentence that throws the problem of evil out of the window.
November 7, 2017 at 1:46 pm
(This post was last modified: November 7, 2017 at 1:49 pm by The Grand Nudger.)
(November 7, 2017 at 1:38 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote: As an example, subjective morality means there is no correct answer to the question: "Is it good or is it bad to rape and torture and kill little kids?" That's not what subjective morality means. Subjective morality states that there are -many- correct answers to that question..not all of which agree with each other.
Quote:Objective morality means there IS a correct answer to the question: "Is it good or is it bad to rape and torture and kill little kids?"
and -that's- not what objective morality means. Objective morality means that some objective thing about that act x, rather than the cacaphony of opinions above, is what makes x immoral.
Some moral questions in an objective framework -have- no "correct" answer. No answer can be given objectively. The set of answers to those questions are known as exclusively sub-optimal decisions. The territory of lesser evils. Those answers are given by way of necessarrily subjective (and often fuzzy or contradictory) metrics..... even from within an objective framework.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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RE: One sentence that throws the problem of evil out of the window.
November 7, 2017 at 1:46 pm
(November 7, 2017 at 10:04 am)Catholic_Lady Wrote: (November 7, 2017 at 10:02 am)Cyberman Wrote: But those things don't matter, as MK has taught us. All those children have to do is be patient and it will all be worth it. See, that's the trap of painting on a canvas so broad that the individual brushstrokes - the children in this example - get swallowed up.
To be fair, he didn't say it doesn't matter. He said a limited time of suffering is worth the eternal happiness that will come after it.
The religion of Wimpy. "I will gladly pay you Tuesday for a hamburger today."
The problem is that Tuesday never comes.
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RE: One sentence that throws the problem of evil out of the window.
November 7, 2017 at 1:50 pm
-and you can't get the hamburger without a side of rape.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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RE: One sentence that throws the problem of evil out of the window.
November 7, 2017 at 1:55 pm
(November 7, 2017 at 9:37 am)pool the matey Wrote: All you have to know is there is a positive thing at the end of every suffering MK. God has a plan for every one of us, whatever hell anyone is going through as long as they endure it there will be a reward for them in the end and that's the absolute truth.
Totally. That's why it's fine to let starving babies starve, to step over the homeless guy on the street to buy your $10 Starbucks latte, or to tear holes in the ozone and pretend it never happened because it can increase corporate revenues by 25%.
. . . or not to take your meds.
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