One sentence that throws the problem of evil out of the window.

[WinterHold]

I follow the evidence wherever it lies; CL. I took a decision long while ago to never ever go against an evidence when I find it; no matter whom I'm going to lose in the process, or what I will suffer from in that path.
I will be totally honest with you: that's what I know about Catholic faith, and that's what this link told me:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_...atholicism


The link says that Catholic clergy "did" say that about hell.
You objected on my previous sources; so I brought other sources from Wikipedia.

Nothing is personal.

And I specifically told you the only reliable source for what the Church teaches are Church documents themselves. You insist on using Wikipedia rather than looking up church documents which are all available online. All you have to do is Google "catechism".

But ok, I'll play along and use your Wikipedia:

Even still, i read it again and I'm not seeing where Wikipedia says Catholics believe non Christians go to Hell. Can you copy and paste please where it says that?

You're being dishonest.

I am coming from Arabia; and you expect me to read the "official notes of the institution"?
The institution lies to control; this is not conspiracy stuff because whole states (like the Soviet Union) believed in this. Shame that soviets followed the institution in step by step during Stalin and after.

What did Islam gained from the lies of the world? resources of native Arabs got sucked; lands got burned; people got killed by masses. We gained nothing from the lies of the institution.

So I'm not taking info from official sources; sorry. I will take the opinion of a third party; an external observer is always my pick. I saw enough back stabbing to stop believing in official institutions.

The Catholic clergy says what the Bible doesn't say. The Islamic clergy say what the Quran doesn't say. The American officials never take responsibility for the crimes they did in our region.

[Catholic_Lady]

And I specifically told you the only reliable source for what the Church teaches are Church documents themselves. You insist on using Wikipedia rather than looking up church documents which are all available online. All you have to do is Google "catechism".

But ok, I'll play along and use your Wikipedia:

Even still, i read it again and I'm not seeing where Wikipedia says Catholics believe non Christians go to Hell. Can you copy and paste please where it says that?

You're being dishonest.

I am coming from Arabia; and you expect me to read the "official notes of the institution"?
The institution lies to control; this is not conspiracy stuff because whole states (like the Soviet Union) believed in this. Shame that soviets followed the institution in step by step.

What did Islam gained from the lies of the world? resources of native Arabs got sicked; lands got burned; people got killed by masses. We gained nothing from the lies of the institution.

So I'm not taking info from official sources; sorry. I will take the opinion of a third party; an external observer is always my pick. I saw enough back stabbing to stop believing in official institutions.

The Catholic clergy says what the Bible doesn't say. The Islamic clergy say what the Quran doesn't say. The American officials never take responsibility for the crimes they did in our region.

It doesn't matter where you are, and you know that. The catechism is entirely online. If you can access Wikipedia, you can access the Catechism.

Furthermore, you're claiming that Wikipedia says "Catholic clergy" said that all non christians go to hell. But it doesnt say that. I read it twice, and also asked you to copy and paste where it says that on wiki. Which you haven't done.

You're just straight up blatantly lying, atlas. Its disappointing because I thought you were above that. But I guess now I know.

---

@Atlas

There is a difference between one's personal beliefs, and what their religious doctrine states. You can say, 'you aren't really following Catholicism then, if you don't believe what the doctrine and holy texts say, and that's a separate discussion. But you don't get to tell someone what they do or don't personally believe.

LOC, I do believe what my religious doctrines state. Atlas is making stuff up about what Catholicism teaches.

[Whateverist]

Annnnnnnd where does it say on there that Catholic teaching is that atheists and those of other faiths go to Hell??

As for your question regarding Wikipedia...

Listen, the Catechism is the official document with all the Catholic teaching regarding faith and morals. So I'll say it again: If you want to know what the Church's official stance on something is, your best bet is to go to the Catechism and look up whatever you want to find. That way you avoid arguing a strawman of Catholicism and making yourself look silly in the process. Going straight to the source is a much better option than relying on Wikipedia or someone's blog site.

Then, you believe in Catechism and not the Bible; which points and indicates that the Christian Catholic faith is a human invention,

News flash: all religions are human inventions. The fact that the Catholics feel empowered to revise as they go just shows they are still stirring the pot. I wouldn't brag about clinging to bronze age doctrine, it isn't really better.

---

Big Mo was certainly a fan.  Perhaps he got a taste for it in Syria? After all..he decided to hijack the eastern christian faith, sprinkle a bit of rabbinical judaism for flavor...then account for the superstitions of the locals.....insisting all the while that he spoke for god.  

Not really. To approach Islam is so different than approaching Christianity.

In Islam, you read the Quran like Mohammed did, and you don't trust the clergy or your fathers with their teachings. Also; you tend to contact God directly (by praying). There is no "official clergy" that contact God for you.
Save

They may not tell you how to interpret the Koran but you know they're more than ready to stone you if you get it wrong enough.  Islam is such a bloody sport.

[WinterHold]

I am coming from Arabia; and you expect me to read the "official notes of the institution"?
The institution lies to control; this is not conspiracy stuff because whole states (like the Soviet Union) believed in this. Shame that soviets followed the institution in step by step.

What did Islam gained from the lies of the world? resources of native Arabs got sicked; lands got burned; people got killed by masses. We gained nothing from the lies of the institution.

So I'm not taking info from official sources; sorry. I will take the opinion of a third party; an external observer is always my pick. I saw enough back stabbing to stop believing in official institutions.

The Catholic clergy says what the Bible doesn't say. The Islamic clergy say what the Quran doesn't say. The American officials never take responsibility for the crimes they did in our region.

It doesn't matter where you are, and you know that. The catechism is entirely online. If you can access Wikipedia, you can access the Catechism.

Furthermore, you're claiming that Wikipedia says "Catholic clergy" said that all non christians go to hell. But it doesnt say that. I read it twice, and also asked you to copy and paste where it says that on wiki. Which you haven't done.

You're just straight up blatantly lying, atlas. Its disappointing because I thought you were above that. But I guess now I know.

---

@Atlas

There is a difference between one's personal beliefs, and what their religious doctrine states.  You can say, 'you aren't really following Catholicism then, if you don't believe what the doctrine and holy texts say, and that's a separate discussion.  But you don't get to tell someone what they do or don't personally believe.

LOC, I do believe what my religious doctrines state. Atlas is making stuff up about what Catholicism teaches.

In post number #277 from this topic (which can be accessed from the link below) I wrote:
https://atheistforums.org/thread-52012-p...pid1653165

[/url]

[url=https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_views_on_hell#Roman_Catholicism]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_...atholicism

Nature of hell

The Catechism of the Catholic Church which, when published in 1992, Pope John Paul II declared to be "a sure norm for teaching the faith",[43] defines hell as eternal fiery punishment for refusing to love God:

The Catechism of the Catholic Church, in 1992, declared that it is sure a norm in Catholic faith, that hell is a fiery punishment for refusing to love God.

Sorry but if this doesn't prove what I say about Catholic believes; what can prove?

---

---

@Atlas

There is a difference between one's personal beliefs, and what their religious doctrine states.  You can say, 'you aren't really following Catholicism then, if you don't believe what the doctrine and holy texts say, and that's a separate discussion.  But you don't get to tell someone what they do or don't personally believe.

LOC, I do believe what my religious doctrines state. Atlas is making stuff up about what Catholicism teaches.

I'm not making anything up.
You're the one making things up and practicing missionary actions. Bash me; go on. I'm bullet proof. Banning me is also a good choice

[Whateverist]

Late to this thread. I see the believers are at it again with their wild imaginations. Religion is so derivative these days. Anything new next season or just re-runs?

With Catholicism there may be an occasional new episode, but these Muslim brothers and their Christian fundamentalist counterparts are proud of that old time religion, it's good enough for them.

[WinterHold]

Then, you believe in Catechism and not the Bible; which points and indicates that the Christian Catholic faith is a human invention,

News flash: all religions are human inventions.  The fact that the Catholics feel empowered to revise as they go just shows they are still stirring the pot.  I wouldn't brag about clinging to bronze age doctrine, it isn't really better.

---

Not really. To approach Islam is so different than approaching Christianity.

In Islam, you read the Quran like Mohammed did, and you don't trust the clergy or your fathers with their teachings. Also; you tend to contact God directly (by praying). There is no "official clergy" that contact God for you.
Save

They may not tell you how to interpret the Koran but you know they're more than ready to stone you if you get it wrong enough.  Islam is such a bloody sport.

Exactly like Christian cannibal crusaders:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siege_of_M...annibalism

---

Late to this thread. I see the believers are at it again with their wild imaginations. Religion is so derivative these days. Anything new next season or just re-runs?

With Catholicism there may be an occasional new episode, but these Muslim brothers and their Christian fundamentalist counterparts are proud of that old time religion, it's good enough for them.

Being a tail for governments and people in power is not a good thing. If Hitler was in power, the Catholic Church would've advocated Nazism.

[Whateverist]

News flash: all religions are human inventions.  The fact that the Catholics feel empowered to revise as they go just shows they are still stirring the pot.  I wouldn't brag about clinging to bronze age doctrine, it isn't really better.

---

They may not tell you how to interpret the Koran but you know they're more than ready to stone you if you get it wrong enough.  Islam is such a bloody sport.

Exactly like Christian cannibal crusaders:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siege_of_M...annibalism

Exactly as off the wall as I've come to expect from you.  Why quote me if you just want to say weird shit.  You're not dealing honestly with C_L either.  Not much point in interacting with someone like that.  Bye.

[WinterHold]

Exactly like Christian cannibal crusaders:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siege_of_M...annibalism

Exactly as off the wall as I've come to expect from you.  Why quote me if you just want to say weird shit.  You're not dealing honestly with C_L either.  Not much point in interacting with someone like that.  Bye.

Confront my ideas instead of this childish bullshit that non of us have time to. Your opinion in me is as worthless as my 1 $ cup of coffee which is very disposable, so, my ideas; please. That's what I'm interested to hear opinions in.

[Catholic_Lady]

It doesn't matter where you are, and you know that. The catechism is entirely online. If you can access Wikipedia, you can access the Catechism.

Furthermore, you're claiming that Wikipedia says "Catholic clergy" said that all non christians go to hell. But it doesnt say that. I read it twice, and also asked you to copy and paste where it says that on wiki. Which you haven't done.

You're just straight up blatantly lying, atlas. Its disappointing because I thought you were above that. But I guess now I know.

---

LOC, I do believe what my religious doctrines state. Atlas is making stuff up about what Catholicism teaches.

In post number #277 from this topic (which can be accessed from the link below) I wrote:
https://atheistforums.org/thread-52012-p...pid1653165

[/url]

[url=https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_views_on_hell#Roman_Catholicism]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_...atholicism


The Catechism of the Catholic Church, in 1992, declared that it is sure a norm in Catholic faith, that hell is a fiery punishment for refusing to love God.

Sorry but if this doesn't prove what I say about Catholic believes; what can prove?

---

---

LOC, I do believe what my religious doctrines state. Atlas is making stuff up about what Catholicism teaches.

I'm not making anything up.
You're the one making things up and practicing missionary actions. Bash me; go on. I'm bullet proof. Banning me is also a good choice

Atlas, thats quite a reach. Not believing that God exists, or being of a different faith than Christianity, isn't the same as conscientiously refusing to love Him. We have to first believe He is real before choosing to turn our backs to Him, and theres no way to know who did that. That's why we as Catholics specifically steer clear of assuming any particular person is in Hell. The source you posted itself said that the only beings we can be absolutely sure are in Hell are Satan and his followers. Because we cannot see into a person's heart and know their motives and their intentions and wheher they made a conscious decision to reject God. No where in Catholic teaching will you see it said that non Christians go to Hell. Nowhere. We are specifically not allowed to say that because we simply don't know and it isn't our place to judge the state of another person's soul.

No offense, but you are a Muslim living in a Muslim country where Christianity isn't even allowed. I guarantee that i, as a practicing Catholic my whole life, know more about Catholicism than you. As you know more about Islam than me. You don't see me in here trying to teach YOU about the Islam faith, do you? That would be incredibly ridiculous of me.

[WinterHold]

Atlas, thats quite a reach. Not believing that God exists, or being of a different faith than Christianity, isn't the same as conscientiously refusing to love Him. We have to first believe He is real before choosing to turn our backs to Him, and theres no way to know who did that. That's why we as Catholics specifically steer clear of assuming any particular person is in Hell. The source you posted itself said that the only beings we can be absolutely sure are in Hell are Satan and his followers. Because we cannot see into a person's heart and know their motives and their intentions and wheher they made a conscious decision to reject God. No where in Catholic teaching will you see it said that non Christians go to Hell. Nowhere. We are specifically not allowed to say that because we simply don't know and it isn't our place to judge the state of another person's soul.

That's the different in faith that make you a Catholic, and me a non Shiite/Sunni Muslim; and draws a line between my opinion and yours.
To you your faith; to me mine.

I didn't talk about judging what in peoples' hearts. I told you in the very first comment here, that I'm not God to know:

https://atheistforums.org/thread-52012-p...pid1653010

Atlas: yes, I have Muslim friends. I am well aware that Muslims and many Christian denominations believe I will go to Hell for being Catholic.

I can be of its inhabitants in the afterlife, anybody can, and nobody knows is written for sure to be of its citizens. That's how it is in Islam.
According to Catholic tradition; I assume I want be accepted in heaven too since I don't accept Jesus -peace be upon him- to be the Lord; God.

I don't know if you're ignoring what I write on purpose; like you have a point from doing it; or what.

No offense, but you are a Muslim living in a Muslim country where Christianity isn't even allowed. I guarantee that i, as a practicing Catholic my whole life, know more about Catholicism than you. As you know more about Islam than me. You don't see me in here trying to teach YOU about the Islam faith, do you? That would be incredibly ridiculous of me.I

I didn't know that discussing my views in here is limited by racial conditions. I see lots of westerners and Americans discussing foreign religions, customs and habits, so I thought it's okay for me to the same.

Thank you for notifying me. If you gathered proper support; you can shut me down for good.