Man Named 'Tiffany' Is Dominating Women's Pro Volleyball in Brazil

[paulpablo]

So some trans people hide it and there is stigma.

But why can't you imagine a hot shot male athlete transitioning to female later in life when arguably the most famous trans woman on planet earth did that?

And to say that in this thread, which is all about a male athlete who's transitioning after competing as a male.

To say that it doesn't happen that way when clearly and obviously sometimes it does seems wrong.

[GrandizerII]

So some trans people hide it and there is stigma.

But why can't you imagine a hot shot male athlete transitioning to female later in life when arguably the most famous trans woman on planet earth did that?

And to say that in this thread, which is all about a male athlete who's transitioning after competing as a male.

To say that it doesn't happen that way when clearly and obviously sometimes it does seems wrong.

pool is using the wrong words perhaps, but he's right about the point that people don't just suddenly decide to become a different sex from what they were born as.

[Cod]

It's not about being PC.. It's about standing up against bigotry.

Everything is bigotry nowadays apparently. Don't want to sleep with a woman with a fake vagina? Bigot! That's how absurd things are getting.

No. Everything is not bigotry, including the ridiculous example you have just given.

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It's not about being PC.. It's about standing up against bigotry.

Well my stance has nothing to do with bigotry and I resent the accusation.  It's a concern as an athlete.  I'm against this for the same reason I'm against steroids. It's a frustrating conversation to have because people are quick with bigot accusation and know nothing about sports.

My posts have been clear on who I think is a bigot, the wording of the OP confirmed that to me.
How do you know I know nothing about sports? Where would you stand on a F to M trans person competing against males? Surely that person would be at a disadvantage according to your logic. Should all trans people be banned from participating in sports? Do you seriously think that this issue is widespread in world sport? or do you think it's another obscure story dug up by bigoted people to make a non issue into an issue?

[CapnAwesome]

No shit, and then they compete against someone who had to go through puberty without male levels of testosterone. The difference there is huge. For example,  the person this thread was about played in a Belgium c level pro league, and then transitions and immediately sets records as a pro in Brazil, which has one of the strongest pro volleyball leagues. To deny that artificial advantage is insane.

Could be partly due to experience in the men's league. Remember, she's been artificially weakened in order to play in the women's league.

Anyway, we're working with a very small sample here, and there's a lot of social/environmental factors we need to consider as well. Let's not jump to rash conclusions and panic in the process.

Women's volleyball in Brazil is full of top athletes. Way higher level of competition then c league men in Belgium. It is a small sample size and we are at just the start of trans people competing and we've already seen a disproportionate amount of records crushed. I think that article was full of bigotry and bigoted language, but it made the very valid point that this is going to be the downfall of many womens sports, where biological women won't be able to compete and pro leagues will be stocked with many trans athletes.

You already, just a couple of years in, are starting to see this happen. It's going to be bad for the trans community too, because it's going to make it very hard to argue that they are women just like any other women, when they are playing sports closer to the level of men then women. It'll give infinite ammo to the opponents of trans rights and an undecided person on trans, watching a trans girl bash the brains in of cis gendered girl in a cage fight isn't going to win over hearts and minds. It's going to be detrimental.

Being born a man provides all kinds of advantages to tiffany that she wouldn't of had as a man. For example probably they were average height for the men's league but is a giant amongst the women. Transitioning provided that height, suddenly Tiffany is competing against much shorter people and being weakened by a lack of testosterone did nothing to change that.

It's not the same as a girl being born tall, before that sorry argument is trotted out for the millionth time, because it was artificial means that took away testosterone and let tiff compete against women.

As a side note I'd say the level of athlete in womens volleyball is very high compared to men, because tall athletic men are more likely to persue basketball, where as volleyball is a very popular and well established sport amongst women, especially in Brazil.

Again, people who don't know that much about sports really I think jump to the sides of trans people out of intinct because that's what they always do, but in this case you need blinders on to not see the advantage, and denying it just makes it seem like people value their political opinions more than reality.

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Everything is bigotry nowadays apparently. Don't want to sleep with a woman with a fake vagina? Bigot! That's how absurd things are getting.

No. Everything is not bigotry, including the ridiculous example you have just given.

---

Well my stance has nothing to do with bigotry and I resent the accusation.  It's a concern as an athlete.  I'm against this for the same reason I'm against steroids. It's a frustrating conversation to have because people are quick with bigot accusation and know nothing about sports.

My posts have been clear on who I think is a bigot, the wording of the OP confirmed that to me.
How do you know I know nothing about sports? Where would you stand on a F to M trans person competing against males? Surely that person would be at a disadvantage according to your logic. Should all trans people be banned from participating in sports? Do you seriously think that this issue is widespread in world sport? or do you think it's another obscure story dug up by bigoted people to make a non issue into an issue?

It's just starting, I already have several examples, including all the weightlifting records smashed. Why deny they have an unfair advantage? If you knew a lot about sports, athletics, testosterone and steroids, that would be a difficult position to take. You certainly haven't made an argument that makes me think you do.

A Male to Female trans person would be at a huge disadvantage competing with men. That's why there isn't a single case that I can think of of high level success by such a person, while there are tons the other way. Nor do I think there ever will be. Id be super impressed by such a person as an athlete. I'm okay with that because they don't have any added advantage, unlike trans women. The same as I'm fine with women competing in men's leagues as well. That's upping your level of competition, not lowering it.

Consider that for a moment that these sports success are only F to M, and not the other way around and that should tell you the whole story.

[Cod]

Could be partly due to experience in the men's league. Remember, she's been artificially weakened in order to play in the women's league.

Anyway, we're working with a very small sample here, and there's a lot of social/environmental factors we need to consider as well. Let's not jump to rash conclusions and panic in the process.

Women's volleyball in Brazil is full of top athletes.  Way higher level of competition then c league men in Belgium.  It is a small sample size and we are at just the start of trans people competing and we've already seen a disproportionate amount of records crushed. I think that article was full of bigotry and bigoted language, but it made the very valid point that this is going to be the downfall of many womens sports, where biological women won't be able to compete and pro leagues will be stocked with many trans athletes.

You already, just a couple of years in, are starting to see this happen. It's going to be bad for the trans community too, because it's going to make it very hard to argue that they are women just like any other women, when they are playing sports closer to the level of men then women. It'll give infinite ammo to the opponents of trans rights and an undecided person on trans, watching a trans girl bash the brains in of cis  gendered girl in a cage fight isn't going to win over hearts and minds. It's going to be detrimental.

Being born a man provides all kinds of advantages to tiffany that she wouldn't of had as a man. For example probably they were average height for the men's league but is a giant amongst the women. Transitioning provided that height, suddenly Tiffany is competing against much shorter people and being weakened by a lack of testosterone did nothing to change that.

It's not the same as a girl being born tall, before that sorry argument is trotted out for the millionth time, because it was artificial means that took away testosterone and let tiff compete against women.

As a side note I'd say the level of athlete in womens volleyball is very high compared to men, because tall athletic men are more likely to persue basketball, where as volleyball is a very popular and well established sport amongst women, especially in Brazil.

Again, people who don't know that much about sports really I think jump to the sides of trans people out of intinct because that's what they always do, but in this case you need blinders on to not see the advantage, and denying it just makes it seem like people value their political opinions more than reality.

---

No. Everything is not bigotry, including the ridiculous example you have just given.

---

My posts have been clear on who I think is a bigot, the wording of the OP confirmed that to me.
How do you know I know nothing about sports? Where would you stand on a F to M trans person competing against males? Surely that person would be at a disadvantage according to your logic. Should all trans people be banned from participating in sports? Do you seriously think that this issue is widespread in world sport? or do you think it's another obscure story dug up by bigoted people to make a non issue into an issue?

It's just starting, I already have several examples, including all the weightlifting records smashed.  Why deny they have an unfair advantage?  If you knew a lot about sports, athletics, testosterone and steroids, that would be a difficult position to take. You certainly haven't made an argument that makes me think you do.

It's just starting lol, Do you think this is a major issue in world sports yes or no?

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And I'm stepping away from this thread now before I say something I regret.

[GrandizerII]

Again, it's a very small sample to draw conclusions from, and so far, it's only been two cases I've heard of in this thread about M-to-F transsexual people dominating their respective sports. One of them has lost one fight in a physical fight against a cis-gendered woman (and she's only been in a few fights so far, it seems), and the other one is now considerably slower than she was when she was a man.

You're also refusing to take into account social/environmental/experiential factors that may partly explain the [initial, at least] domination being discussed. I think what you, and others on your side, are doing is focusing on one small part of the picture, and making it out to be the whole picture. For whatever reason.

[robvalue]

I like the suggestion of using ability classes and ignoring gender altogether.

[FFaith]

Everything is bigotry nowadays apparently. Don't want to sleep with a woman with a fake vagina? Bigot! That's how absurd things are getting.

No. Everything is not bigotry, including the ridiculous example you have just given.

---

Well my stance has nothing to do with bigotry and I resent the accusation.  It's a concern as an athlete.  I'm against this for the same reason I'm against steroids. It's a frustrating conversation to have because people are quick with bigot accusation and know nothing about sports.

My posts have been clear on who I think is a bigot, the wording of the OP confirmed that to me.
How do you know I know nothing about sports? Where would you stand on a F to M trans person competing against males? Surely that person would be at a disadvantage according to your logic. Should all trans people be banned from participating in sports? Do you seriously think that this issue is widespread in world sport? or do you think it's another obscure story dug up by bigoted people to make a non issue into an issue?

It is considered bigoted or transphobic by plenty of SJWs and trans people, and if you think it's bigotry to want bio males and females separated in sports (and if you don't, the person I was responding to did post that), then your opinion is just as ridiculous and you are turning away allies with your nonsense. Good job.

[robvalue]

Chad is just mad at God because it can't even successfully match up brains and bodies. A five-year-old could do better.

[Brian37]

Folks who are biological males shouldn't compete against biological females in physical competitions. It isn't a fair competition for those women to have biological males competing against them.

(^That statement is common sense and shouldn't at all be controversial, but unfortunately it is and I'm sure I'll get a lot of shit.)

Really? 

Male vs male can be unfair too. Not all men are the same size either. I tried to play sports growing up, and all the guys were bigger and stronger than me too, so by this logic you should consider me biologically female.

I think even between men, or even between women, it should be about weight class and ability, not your sexual organs. Maybe the solution isn't to ban this person, but maybe the other team needs to consider diversity themselves. 

I took a PE class in college, bowling to be specific. Got beat by a female. The pins and ball had no capability of judging my skill or that of the woman that beat me. I never felt a bit of shame for losing to her. 

"Fair" to me is when both sides do the same thing. Unfair is setting limits on one side.