Man Named 'Tiffany' Is Dominating Women's Pro Volleyball in Brazil

[paulpablo]

I like the suggestion of using ability classes and ignoring gender altogether.

Welcome back Rob value.

The problem with this idea is that in many sports it would eliminate women from the competition altogether. Or at least reduce their legendary status, sponsorship deals, various awards, belts and so on, general earnings.

I already mentioned before that Serena Williams who's known as a top female tennis player has lost to a male tennis player ranked around 203rd.  That's a big difference in earnings and general value between being a top ten player in your peers and being ranked lower than in the top 200s.  

It's the same with the UFC.  Ronda Rousey could probably beat up a lot of men, it's been commented on by people involved in the sport that she could.  But they also wouldn't hesitate to say there's no way she'd have her 12-2-0 record if she had been competing against men, and it's nearly impossible that she'd have been a batamweight champion.  That takes away a lot of recognition, sponsorship, and in her case a hell of a lot of earnings that she did get from being known as a big UFC celebrity as being the women's batamweight champion.

I would actually like to see it as an experiment what would happen if you did ignore gender and it was just ability, but it would very likely make the women's earnings even less than they are in the sport.

[robvalue]

I like the suggestion of using ability classes and ignoring gender altogether.

Welcome back Rob value.

The problem with this idea is that in many sports it would eliminate women from the competition altogether. Or at least reduce their legendary status, sponsorship deals, various awards, belts and so on, general earnings.

I already mentioned before that Serena Williams who's known as a top female tennis player has lost to a male tennis player ranked around 203rd.  That's a big difference in earnings and general value between being a top ten player in your peers and being ranked lower than in the top 200s.  

It's the same with the UFC.  Ronda Rousey could probably beat up a lot of men, it's been commented on by people involved in the sport that she could.  But they also wouldn't hesitate to say there's no way she'd have her 12-2-0 record if she had been competing against men, and it's nearly impossible that she'd have been a batamweight champion.  That takes away a lot of recognition, sponsorship, and in her case a hell of a lot of earnings that she did get from being known as a big UFC celebrity as being the women's batamweight champion.

I would actually like to see it as an experiment what would happen if you did ignore gender and it was just ability, but it would very likely make the women's earnings even less than they are in the sport.

Thank you

Sure yes, I only mean it's worthy of consideration.

Sport is an odd one, because it's entertainment, at the end of the day. It's rules have to be somewhat dictated by the spectators, or else it won't work as a business.

[Catholic_Lady]

Could be partly due to experience in the men's league. Remember, she's been artificially weakened in order to play in the women's league.

Anyway, we're working with a very small sample here, and there's a lot of social/environmental factors we need to consider as well. Let's not jump to rash conclusions and panic in the process.

Women's volleyball in Brazil is full of top athletes. Way higher level of competition then c league men in Belgium. It is a small sample size and we are at just the start of trans people competing and we've already seen a disproportionate amount of records crushed. I think that article was full of bigotry and bigoted language, but it made the very valid point that this is going to be the downfall of many womens sports, where biological women won't be able to compete and pro leagues will be stocked with many trans athletes.

You already, just a couple of years in, are starting to see this happen. It's going to be bad for the trans community too, because it's going to make it very hard to argue that they are women just like any other women, when they are playing sports closer to the level of men then women. It'll give infinite ammo to the opponents of trans rights and an undecided person on trans, watching a trans girl bash the brains in of cis gendered girl in a cage fight isn't going to win over hearts and minds. It's going to be detrimental.

Being born a man provides all kinds of advantages to tiffany that she wouldn't of had as a man. For example probably they were average height for the men's league but is a giant amongst the women. Transitioning provided that height, suddenly Tiffany is competing against much shorter people and being weakened by a lack of testosterone did nothing to change that.

It's not the same as a girl being born tall, before that sorry argument is trotted out for the millionth time, because it was artificial means that took away testosterone and let tiff compete against women.

As a side note I'd say the level of athlete in womens volleyball is very high compared to men, because tall athletic men are more likely to persue basketball, where as volleyball is a very popular and well established sport amongst women, especially in Brazil.

Again, people who don't know that much about sports really I think jump to the sides of trans people out of intinct because that's what they always do, but in this case you need blinders on to not see the advantage, and denying it just makes it seem like people value their political opinions more than reality.

---

No. Everything is not bigotry, including the ridiculous example you have just given.

---

My posts have been clear on who I think is a bigot, the wording of the OP confirmed that to me.
How do you know I know nothing about sports? Where would you stand on a F to M trans person competing against males? Surely that person would be at a disadvantage according to your logic. Should all trans people be banned from participating in sports? Do you seriously think that this issue is widespread in world sport? or do you think it's another obscure story dug up by bigoted people to make a non issue into an issue?

It's just starting, I already have several examples, including all the weightlifting records smashed. Why deny they have an unfair advantage? If you knew a lot about sports, athletics, testosterone and steroids, that would be a difficult position to take. You certainly haven't made an argument that makes me think you do.

A Male to Female trans person would be at a huge disadvantage competing with men. That's why there isn't a single case that I can think of of high level success by such a person, while there are tons the other way. Nor do I think there ever will be. Id be super impressed by such a person as an athlete. I'm okay with that because they don't have any added advantage, unlike trans women. The same as I'm fine with women competing in men's leagues as well. That's upping your level of competition, not lowering it.

Consider that for a moment that these sports success are only F to M, and not the other way around and that should tell you the whole story.

Yep. Having been in cross country and track all through high school and college, the best female in our varsity team was still always *significantly* slower than the slowest male in our varsity team. Its not even close. Now, let that sink in - our fastest female was always much slower than our slowest male. Males have a fundamental physical advantage over females when it comes to these types of things. Not just because of current hormone and chemical makeup, but because of bone density, muscle mass, height, size of body frame, size of heart and lungs, and possibly many other things that have not yet been discovered or identified, but that make up the biophysical differences between male/female.

My husband is not a big dude at all. But when we wrestle around for fun, I can feel just how much stronger he is than me. He can pin down both my arms with one hand, and there is absolutely nothing I can do. It literally feels like he is made out of different "stuff" than myself, and I am completely helpless. Fair or not, thats just the work of evolution - males ARE built to be bigger and stronger and faster than females, period. This fact has made women oppressed throughout history, because outwardly, we are the weaker sex and that made us more vulnerable throughout the stone age and still does so now a days in some ways.

Seperating sexes in sports is the *only* chance women have to win in physical competitions and not have to worry about being "the weaker sex", and completely over shadowed and outshined by our male counterparts, like we are in life already.

As a woman and a former athlete myself, it makes me so angry and sad to see all these women getting knocked out of their rightful first places and getting their records crushed because they are now made to compete against folks who are biological males and thus have a male advantage over them. And they are just supposed to shut up and not complain because otherwise they would be "bigots" and accused of "discrimination".

And for those claiming transwomen have no male advantage whatsoever because they are on hormones, how then would you explain all the transwomen who have competed in women's sports and beat them all? Don't be dishonest. You talk about feeling concern for people and letting them have their chance, but you completely ignore the bio women's side of all this, and how it isnt fair to them, as women and as atheletes, and how they are being robbed. Don't call yourself a defender of women when you fully support folks who were born male and have a male advantage crushing their records and knocking them out of their would be well deserved first places. Because that is exactly what is happening, and you are ok with that, and that is shitty as fuck.

Anyway, I'm sure this will all fall on deaf ears of the brick walls on this thread. Thanks Captain and FF for being the logical, sensible voices here.

[Silver]

In my high school/college cross country/track teams, we had girls who were faster than the slowest boys. Males are NOT always better than females in sports.

[GrandizerII]

Women's volleyball in Brazil is full of top athletes.  Way higher level of competition then c league men in Belgium.  It is a small sample size and we are at just the start of trans people competing and we've already seen a disproportionate amount of records crushed. I think that article was full of bigotry and bigoted language, but it made the very valid point that this is going to be the downfall of many womens sports, where biological women won't be able to compete and pro leagues will be stocked with many trans athletes.

You already, just a couple of years in, are starting to see this happen. It's going to be bad for the trans community too, because it's going to make it very hard to argue that they are women just like any other women, when they are playing sports closer to the level of men then women. It'll give infinite ammo to the opponents of trans rights and an undecided person on trans, watching a trans girl bash the brains in of cis  gendered girl in a cage fight isn't going to win over hearts and minds. It's going to be detrimental.

Being born a man provides all kinds of advantages to tiffany that she wouldn't of had as a man. For example probably they were average height for the men's league but is a giant amongst the women. Transitioning provided that height, suddenly Tiffany is competing against much shorter people and being weakened by a lack of testosterone did nothing to change that.

It's not the same as a girl being born tall, before that sorry argument is trotted out for the millionth time, because it was artificial means that took away testosterone and let tiff compete against women.

As a side note I'd say the level of athlete in womens volleyball is very high compared to men, because tall athletic men are more likely to persue basketball, where as volleyball is a very popular and well established sport amongst women, especially in Brazil.

Again, people who don't know that much about sports really I think jump to the sides of trans people out of intinct because that's what they always do, but in this case you need blinders on to not see the advantage, and denying it just makes it seem like people value their political opinions more than reality.

---

It's just starting, I already have several examples, including all the weightlifting records smashed.  Why deny they have an unfair advantage?  If you knew a lot about sports, athletics, testosterone and steroids, that would be a difficult position to take. You certainly haven't made an argument that makes me think you do.

A Male to Female trans person would be at a huge disadvantage competing with men. That's why there isn't a single case that I can think of of high level success by such a person, while there are tons the other way. Nor do I think there ever will be. Id be super impressed by such a person as an athlete. I'm okay with that because they don't have any added advantage,  unlike trans women. The same as I'm fine with women competing in men's leagues as well. That's upping your level of competition,  not lowering it.

Consider that for a moment that these sports success are only F to M, and not the other way around and that should tell you the whole story.

Yep. Having been in cross country and track all through high school and college, the best female in our varsity team was still always *significantly* slower than the slowest male in our varsity team. Its not even close. Now, let that sink in - our fastest female was still much slower than our slower male. Males have a fundamental physical advantage over females when it comes to these types of things. Not just because of current hormone and chemical makeup, but because of bone density, muscle mass, height, size of body frame, size of heart and lungs, and possibly many other things that have not yet been discovered or identified, but that make up the biological differences between male/female.

My husband is not a big dude at all. But when we wrestle around for fun, I can feel just how much stronger he is than me. He can pin down both my arms with one hand, and there is absolutely nothing I can do. It literally feels like he is made out of different "stuff" than myself, and I am completely helpless. Fair or not, thats just the work of evolution - males ARE built to be bigger and stronger and faster than females, period. This fact has made women oppressed throughout history, because outwardly, we are the weaker sex and that made us more vulnerable throughout the stone age and still does so now a days in some ways.  

Seperating sexes in sports is the *only* chance women have to win in physical competitions and not have to worry about being "the weaker sex", and completely over shadowed and outshined by our male counterparts, like we are in life already.

As a woman and a former athlete myself, it makes me so angry and sad to see all these women getting knocked out of their rightful first places and getting their records crushed because they are now made to compete against folks who are biological males and thus have a male advantage over them. And they are just supposed to shut up and not complain because otherwise they would be "bigots" and accused of "discrimination".

And for those claiming transwomen have no male advantage whatsoever because they are on hormones, how then would you explain all the transwomen who have competed in women's sports and beat them all? Don't be dishonest. You talk about feeling concern for people and letting them have their chance, but you completely ignore the bio women's side of all this, and how it isnt fair to them, as women and as atheletes, and how they are being robbed. Don't call yourself a defender of women when you fully support folks who were born male and have a male advantage crushing their records and knocking them out of their would be well deserved first places. Because that is exactly what is happening, and you are ok with that, and that is shitty as fuck.

Anyway, I'm sure this will all fall on deaf ears of the brick walls on this thread. Thanks Captain and FF for being the logical, sensible voices here.

You're blowing it wayyyy out of proportion. The domination of transsexual women in women's sports is nothing more than an exaggeration, and there have been several losses suffered by transwomen in these games (even Fallon lost once to another woman in a physical fight). It's not like they're winning every single time, and not all of them are even dominating other women.

As someone who's majored in psychology, I would know it would be a rash thing to just simply assert it must be this one factor that is behind this phenomenon being observed without considering all other relevant factors. It's poor critical thinking skills to just focus on one factor in this matter, and make your ultimate decision from just that.

[Divinity]

Anyway, I'm sure this will all fall on deaf ears of the brick walls on this thread. Thanks Captain and FF for being the logical, sensible voices here.

Ahh yes 'logical and sensible' aka "They agree with me"

[Silver]

I'm certain It's already been mentioned, but here it is again: how can a single person dominate in a team sport? A team wins due to the efforts of the entire team, not due merely to one single team member.

[Brian37]

Women's volleyball in Brazil is full of top athletes.  Way higher level of competition then c league men in Belgium.  It is a small sample size and we are at just the start of trans people competing and we've already seen a disproportionate amount of records crushed. I think that article was full of bigotry and bigoted language, but it made the very valid point that this is going to be the downfall of many womens sports, where biological women won't be able to compete and pro leagues will be stocked with many trans athletes.

You already, just a couple of years in, are starting to see this happen. It's going to be bad for the trans community too, because it's going to make it very hard to argue that they are women just like any other women, when they are playing sports closer to the level of men then women. It'll give infinite ammo to the opponents of trans rights and an undecided person on trans, watching a trans girl bash the brains in of cis  gendered girl in a cage fight isn't going to win over hearts and minds. It's going to be detrimental.

Being born a man provides all kinds of advantages to tiffany that she wouldn't of had as a man. For example probably they were average height for the men's league but is a giant amongst the women. Transitioning provided that height, suddenly Tiffany is competing against much shorter people and being weakened by a lack of testosterone did nothing to change that.

It's not the same as a girl being born tall, before that sorry argument is trotted out for the millionth time, because it was artificial means that took away testosterone and let tiff compete against women.

As a side note I'd say the level of athlete in womens volleyball is very high compared to men, because tall athletic men are more likely to persue basketball, where as volleyball is a very popular and well established sport amongst women, especially in Brazil.

Again, people who don't know that much about sports really I think jump to the sides of trans people out of intinct because that's what they always do, but in this case you need blinders on to not see the advantage, and denying it just makes it seem like people value their political opinions more than reality.

---

It's just starting, I already have several examples, including all the weightlifting records smashed.  Why deny they have an unfair advantage?  If you knew a lot about sports, athletics, testosterone and steroids, that would be a difficult position to take. You certainly haven't made an argument that makes me think you do.

A Male to Female trans person would be at a huge disadvantage competing with men. That's why there isn't a single case that I can think of of high level success by such a person, while there are tons the other way. Nor do I think there ever will be. Id be super impressed by such a person as an athlete. I'm okay with that because they don't have any added advantage,  unlike trans women. The same as I'm fine with women competing in men's leagues as well. That's upping your level of competition,  not lowering it.

Consider that for a moment that these sports success are only F to M, and not the other way around and that should tell you the whole story.

Yep. Having been in cross country and track all through high school and college, the best female in our varsity team was still always *significantly* slower than the slowest male in our varsity team. Its not even close. Now, let that sink in - our fastest female was always much slower than our slowest male. Males have a fundamental physical advantage over females when it comes to these types of things. Not just because of current hormone and chemical makeup, but because of bone density, muscle mass, height, size of body frame, size of heart and lungs, and possibly many other things that have not yet been discovered or identified, but that make up the biophysical differences between male/female.

My husband is not a big dude at all. But when we wrestle around for fun, I can feel just how much stronger he is than me. He can pin down both my arms with one hand, and there is absolutely nothing I can do. It literally feels like he is made out of different "stuff" than myself, and I am completely helpless. Fair or not, thats just the work of evolution - males ARE built to be bigger and stronger and faster than females, period. This fact has made women oppressed throughout history, because outwardly, we are the weaker sex and that made us more vulnerable throughout the stone age and still does so now a days in some ways.  

Seperating sexes in sports is the *only* chance women have to win in physical competitions and not have to worry about being "the weaker sex", and completely over shadowed and outshined by our male counterparts, like we are in life already.

As a woman and a former athlete myself, it makes me so angry and sad to see all these women getting knocked out of their rightful first places and getting their records crushed because they are now made to compete against folks who are biological males and thus have a male advantage over them. And they are just supposed to shut up and not complain because otherwise they would be "bigots" and accused of "discrimination".

And for those claiming transwomen have no male advantage whatsoever because they are on hormones, how then would you explain all the transwomen who have competed in women's sports and beat them all? Don't be dishonest. You talk about feeling concern for people and letting them have their chance, but you completely ignore the bio women's side of all this, and how it isnt fair to them, as women and as atheletes, and how they are being robbed. Don't call yourself a defender of women when you fully support folks who were born male and have a male advantage crushing their records and knocking them out of their would be well deserved first places. Because that is exactly what is happening, and you are ok with that, and that is shitty as fuck.

Anyway, I'm sure this will all fall on deaf ears of the brick walls on this thread. Thanks Captain and FF for being the logical, sensible voices here.

You would have beaten me. Why should you assume every male can beat every woman. I was never tall or strong. Again, instead of thinking about gender, I think size and weight and ability. A taller bigger man would beat you, if they are good at sports, but that does not mean every male is tall or stronger. I have had females beat me at games before. And I have known females who could even kick my ass.

You are making it about transgender, not me. If it is about skill it is about skill. I could never be even a firefighter, cop or in the military. Lots of females and even transgender do though. 

There is a huge difference between averages and absolutes. Putting an absolute "never" on diverse individuals is not what you should be doing. I feel absolutely no shame in losing to a woman. I would also feel no shame if a female cop or firefighter saved my life. I am not transgender. I am however a smaller male. I am quite sure even back in my 20s someone like the Williams sisters would kick my ass in tennis. And that sport has mixed doubles too. I cant do an overhead serve to save my life.

[GrandizerII]

Panic everyone! It's not just public bathrooms anymore, it's also sports!

[henryp]

I like the suggestion of using ability classes and ignoring gender altogether.

The problem is you take out half the countries ability to play organized sports.  How many college basketball leagues do you need to have running before you get one that a woman can make the team?  Obviously no professional sports careers or athletic scholarships will be available to any women.  

And if this goes into youth sports, there are almost no girls playing high-school sports.

Practically speaking, trans athletes need their own leagues.  The problem is there just aren't enough of them yet for that to be possible.  But this is the solution that would allow trans men to compete, and would keep trans women from having an unfair advantage.