On the subject of Hell and Salvation

[GrandizerII]

So you're an annihilationist? Good to know! I can say fuck God and fuck the Holy Spirit, and I'll still rest in peace when I die.

Wrong, on both both accounts. You will move on and your suffering will continue until you repent, and even this very sentence you've written will have an effect:

"But I say to you that every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment." (Matthew 12:36)

Meh, fuck him. He's just as bad as the eternal torment guy.

[The Grand Nudger]

Hell is not syncretic fiction.

Make up your mind.  

There are realms beyond this world, where the lake of fire (which is metaphorical) purges with sulfur (a purifying agent, again metaphorical). The lake of fire exists to correct us, not to destroy or annihilate us. But neither is "hell" really a physical place. It's a spiritual reality, one where we all exist until the Lord delivers us, which is a long and excruciating process (crucifixion). There are many instances where "Sheol" is described in the Old Testament as a reality for people who were actually writing it, such as the Psalms and the book of Jonah:

"Then Jonah prayed to the LORD his God from the belly of the fish, saying, “I called out to the LORD, out of my distress, and He answered me; out of the belly of Sheol I cried, and You heard my voice." (Jonah 2:1-2)

If you die unsaved in this world, you die "in hell," after which you move on to the next world, which is still hell because you've not yet been delivered from it.

Hell-but-not-hell, except..hell.  

God never does wicked things. I will say that He temporarily withholds mercy from us, but we always need or deserve it. Your problem is you view some of His doings as evil because you lack the proper perspective. It's a very difficult thing to come to terms with the harshness of His judgments, true. But right now you're operating under certain assumptions and carnal rationale, neither of which are wise or useful in the grand scheme.

For instance, if the end result is that everyone is saved, absolutely everyone, and that every tear is wiped away, well...all is well that ends well, don't you think? And this is the truth, one for which you will one day be most thankful.

Consider that you are being made in the image of the Eternal and Omnipotent God. This is no small matter or responsibility. To be forged into this image, intense fire is required; crucifixion is required. I don't use these words lightly. Everyone must suffer intensely in order to be forged, but the end result is the strongest of steel. And how could it not be? It's not your power at work, but God's.

So hell-but-not hell, except hell, because bloodgod just has to use intense fire and crucifixion, and it's not wicked when god does it.  I gave you too much credit before, it seems.

One final point. The notion of Christ is not of pagan origin. This is a notion created by skeptics without any basis in fact. I'll use the film Religulous as an example. Practically all of the parallels Maher draws there are patently false or misleading. If you're unaware, you should look into it. Here is just a short example of rebuttal:

Go bitch about Bill Maher to Bill Maher.  There's a reason that jews are still jewish, and not christian.

[GrandizerII]

Bill Maher was wrong about the supposed parallels he mentioned in the documentary between the Jesus character and the other myth figures, but doesn't change the fact that the legendary (i.e., "God-mode") figure of Jesus is mostly pagan in essence.

[The Grand Nudger]

The idea of god incarnate as man is heretical to the putative source material of the christian faith.  That it arose as a valid concept for fringes within hellenistic judaism but even more broadly among hellenistic gentiles is an inarguable fact of the development of christianity.  The proto christians knew this, themselves, they warned against the beliefs and practices that had arose out of that mire in new magic book.

[MilesAbbott81]

Make up your mind.  

Just because some pagan mythology bears resemblance to what I've described doesn't mean that what I've described is syncretic. To my knowledge, what I've described about hell bears very little resemblance to anything paganism has to offer.

Hell-but-not-hell, except..hell.

No, certainly not in the traditional sense. I don't think you're giving what I've written careful consideration, but that's okay. Others may.  

So hell-but-not hell, except hell, because bloodgod just has to use intense fire and crucifixion, and it's not wicked when god does it.  I gave you too much credit before, it seems.

No, you're just ignoring a huge portion of what I said. I'll reiterate with this Scripture:

"And if we are children, then we are heirs: heirs of God and co-heirs with Christ—if indeed we suffer with Him, so that we may also be glorified with Him. I consider that our present sufferings are not comparable to the glory that will be revealed in us." (Romans 8:17-18)

It's not about the suffering, it's about the end result. You can debate the means to the end all you like, but until you've experienced the end, you're not at all qualified to make that judgment.

One final point. The notion of Christ is not of pagan origin. This is a notion created by skeptics without any basis in fact. I'll use the film Religulous as an example. Practically all of the parallels Maher draws there are patently false or misleading. If you're unaware, you should look into it. Here is just a short example of rebuttal:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xdkxdiPDlkw

Go bitch about Bill Maher to Bill Maher.  There's a reason that jews are still jewish, and not christian.

I'm afraid I don't understand. My argument isn't about Maher, but that he puts forth the same argument that you do. In any case, you've not given me a single fact as to the notion of Christ being of pagan origin.

[The Grand Nudger]

Just because some pagan mythology bears resemblance to what I've described doesn't mean that what I've described is syncretic. To my knowledge, what I've described about hell bears very little resemblance to anything paganism has to offer.

Sure, we could always imagine that everything is just a monumental series of coincidences with no relation to each other whatsoever. You;re the one who told us that there were stories in new magic book that were the bastard child of christianity and paganism, though..remember?

No, certainly not in the traditional sense. I don't think you're giving what I've written careful consideration, but that's okay. Others may.  

I think that you should give your own thoughts more careful consideration.  If someone tells you that they object to the idea of hell, and you tell them that you think hell is a wicked pagan notion, meaningfully false...it makes no sense at all to then re-invoke hell.

The idea of a soul improvement machine is not novel, you are not bearing nuanced arguments as-yet unseen on these boards. You know what I do? Every time my son misses a c key, I slam his fingers under the piano cover. You haven't yet seen the end result, you're in no position to judge. It can't be evil because I'm doing it, and I never do evil things. You simply lack the required perspective.

[MilesAbbott81]

The idea of god incarnate as man is heretical to the putative source material of the christian faith.  That it arose as a valid concept for fringes within hellenistic judaism but even more broadly among hellenistic gentiles is an inarguable fact of the development of christianity.  The proto christians knew this, themselves, they warned against the beliefs and practices that had arose out of that mire in new magic book.

You're talking about things that, as far as I can tell, have no bearing on this conversation. It doesn't matter what some supposed authorities of the faith say the Bible says, it only matters what the Bible says as interpreted by His saints. The vast, vast majority of those in Judaism and nominal Christendom have no understanding from God, only understanding from men, and therefore they are in error.

It sounds like too simple an explanation, perhaps, but it's absolutely true. Those with true understanding are extraordinarily few in number, which is why Jesus warned against the broad path that leads to destruction. You have to enter through the narrow gate.

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Sure, we could always imagine that everything is just a monumental series of coincidences with no relation to each other whatsoever.  You;re the one who told us that there were stories in new magic book that were the bastard child of christianity and paganism, though..remember?

My whole point is that there aren't a monumental series of coincidences. Just because you say the words doesn't make them true.

I think that you should give your own thoughts more careful consideration.  If someone tells you that they object to the idea of hell, and you tell them that you think hell is a wicked pagan notion...it makes no sense at all to then re-invoke hell.

I never said that. I said the notion of an eternal hell is a wicked pagan notion.

[The Grand Nudger]

Obviously an eternity of hell is evil, but what's a few seconds of torture between friends. You're reduced to negotiating with me and the cosmos about how many lashes we can get a mulligan on, lol?

You clearly understand that this is a problematic notion, just as the proto-christians understood that the christ myth was a problematic notion.

[MilesAbbott81]

Obviously an eternity of hell is evil, but what's a few seconds of torture between friends.  You're reduced to negotiating with me and the cosmos about how many lashes we can get a mulligan on, lol?

You clearly understand that this is a problematic notion, just as the proto-christians understood that the christ myth was a problematic notion.

You're reducing complex arguments into simple punchlines that aren't remotely clever or funny.

Jesus Christ came to us in the flesh with the express purpose of dying in probably the worst possible way one can die. To pretend as though He is simply a sadist is a very foolish argument to make.

I'm not sure I understand what you mean by lashes and mulligans. There are no "do-overs." You receive lashes you need or deserve, nothing less and nothing more. We're held accountable for all of our actions, and while He is merciful in the severity of the lashes, our sins are not forgotten until they are forgiven, and they're not forgiven until we've paid our last pennies. That's justice: no one ever gets away with anything.

Perhaps you're in the camp that believes you've not done anything very wrong? Perhaps you're one who doesn't believe he is a sinner, or at least not one who deserves to die? You would be wrong there. We all deserve to die.

[The Grand Nudger]

You're reducing complex arguments into simple punchlines that aren't remotely clever or funny.

More a question for observers, I'd imagine.  

Jesus Christ came to us in the flesh with the express purpose of dying in probably the worst possible way one can die. To pretend as though He is simply a sadist is a very foolish argument to make.

Pagan fiction.  

I'm not sure I understand what you mean by lashes and mulligans. There are no "do-overs." You receive lashes you need or deserve, nothing less and nothing more. We're held accountable for all of our actions, and while He is merciful in the severity of the lashes, our sins are not forgotten until they are forgiven, and they're not forgiven until we've paid our last pennies. That's justice: no one ever gets away with anything.

Perhaps you're in the camp that believes you've not done anything very wrong? Perhaps you're one who doesn't believe he is a sinner, or at least not one who deserves to die? You would be wrong there. We all deserve to die.

Good to know that you think everyone deserves to die.  That's a great way to establish that you understand peoples objections to hell.