Discrimination, oppression, and the War on Christianity

[tackattack]

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@Losty - That sounds ashame that the threat was necessary to get respect. I guess I just prefer the, "let's talk this out" method to the "let me speak to your supervisor". I honestly don't think I've done that more than once.

I understand that you don't feel it would be acceptable in a non-Christian sponsored setting, regardless of the circumstance. Yes I am OK with someone leading the team in a very brief prayer to Satan, or a wiccan circle, or a Hindu mantras, or Salat. I've experienced all of those things  and it's a good way to see a different person's perspective, while not being forced to participate.

I wonder if you would feel the same if you lived in a world where most people worshipped Satan and you knew that by not participating your child would be ostracized at best and possibly bullied.

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Kids bully, and people judge. Giving into peer pressure or compromising your beliefs aren't going to stop that because people also love to steam roll over perceived weakness. Oh, and I think I would, but with my privilege and bias it's hard to know for certain.

Here is the bottom line.

If Christians aren't allowed to insert their beliefs/faith/rituals on everyone they are being persecuted.

Ask them...they'll tell you.

No. If Christians aren't allowed to express their beliefs/faith/rituals in public in their daily life they're being censored. You can't have plurality of expression and free speech without freedom for everyone. I understand that in a sad effort for equanimity of outcome the minority seeks to limit their patriarchal oppressors, but I see it as just as fruitless as fighting fire with fire, an eye for an eye, hatred with hatred, racism with racism, etc. I understand quite clearly that I shouldn't have had a prayer at a secular game in a role of leadership of children. I was flaunting my privilege and it was wrong and not very Christian of me.

can we move on now to discussions of ways to stop oppression without using oppression, discrimination with discrimination, etc.? Should we legislate that people can only pray in authorized areas? Hijabs in public are a religious expression of beliefs, should it be disallowed in all public places? Why just religious expression, why not cultural expressions?

[The Grand Nudger]

Freedom of belief is not freedom of action.

Believing otherwise, making these comparisons.. in some doomed game of both sides-ism.....is very Christian.

It was just you, no one was being equally anything, certainly not poisonous. We all live in this same society where s great number of things, including “cultural expressions” are discouraged or disallowed either de jure or de facto .

In your response to the quoted text you are reaffirming their contents.

[arewethereyet]

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I wonder if you would feel the same if you lived in a world where most people worshipped Satan and you knew that by not participating your child would be ostracized at best and possibly bullied.

---

Kids bully, and people judge. Giving into peer pressure or compromising your beliefs aren't going to stop that because people also love to steam roll over perceived weakness. Oh, and I think I would, but with my privilege and bias it's hard to know for certain.

Here is the bottom line.

If Christians aren't allowed to insert their beliefs/faith/rituals on everyone they are being persecuted.

Ask them...they'll tell you.

No. If Christians aren't allowed to express their beliefs/faith/rituals in public in their daily life they're being censored. You can't have plurality of expression and free speech without freedom for everyone. I understand that in a sad effort for equanimity of outcome the minority seeks to limit their patriarchal oppressors, but I see it as just as fruitless as fighting fire with fire, an eye for an eye, hatred with hatred, racism with racism, etc. I understand quite clearly that I shouldn't have had a prayer at a secular game in a role of leadership of children. I was flaunting my privilege and it was wrong and not very Christian of me.

can we move on now to discussions of ways to stop oppression without using oppression, discrimination with discrimination, etc.? Should we legislate that people can only pray in authorized areas? Hijabs in public are a religious expression of beliefs, should it be disallowed in all public places? Why just religious expression, why not cultural expressions?

I am glad to see that you realize now you shouldn't use your position of authority over kids as an in to evangelize.

Beyond that, I am not playing word games with you any more.  I don't really find you to be very honest which is a change from what I thought when I came here on the regular about a year ago.

[downbeatplumb]

@Losty - That sounds ashame that the threat was necessary to get respect. I guess I just prefer the, "let's talk this out" method to the "let me speak to your supervisor". I honestly don't think I've done that more than once.

I understand that you don't feel it would be acceptable in a non-Christian sponsored setting, regardless of the circumstance. Yes I am OK with someone leading the team in a very brief prayer to Satan, or a wiccan circle, or a Hindu mantras, or Salat. I've experienced all of those things  and it's a good way to see a different person's perspective, while not being forced to participate.

I wonder if you would feel the same if you lived in a world where most people worshipped Satan and you knew that by not participating your child would be ostracized at best and possibly bullied.

If someone had tried to lead us in prayer at my school they would have had the shit kicked out of them for being a prick.

[tackattack]

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Freedom of belief is not freedom of action.

Believing otherwise, making these comparisons.. in some doomed game of both sides-ism.....is very Christian.

It was just you, no one was being equally anything, certainly not poisonous. We all live in this same society where s great number of things, including “cultural expressions” are discouraged or disallowed either de jure or de facto .

In your response to the quoted text you are reaffirming their contents.

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Why is moving forward in the conversation some sort of Christian doomed side-ism? I took the time to see the other side of the equation and admitted my complicity in the problem. I was attempting to open up the topic to allow for discussion of how to allow for the plurality of beliefs and freedom of action can have an equanimity of outcome or whether equanimity of opportunity, with it's inherent social contrivances and restrictions of freedom is better. It's certainly better than nothing, but I've never really prescribed to the lesser of two evils strategy. I'm not really certain where you got the idea I thought anything was poisonous.


@arewethereyet I wasn't attempting to play word games or deceive anyone. Perhaps there was a miscommunication from this particular medium. I would really like to know what made you think this if you're willing to point it out to me or discuss it.

[The Grand Nudger]

No one said that moving forward in the conversation was anything, but this perpetual reframing is, like before...very Christian of you.

[tackattack]

Well pardon me for taking a loaded question like "Discrimination, oppression, and the War on Christianity" and attempting to make it less about me and more fruitful.

So could you please point out where you got the idea I thought anything was poisonous.
Care to comment on how to allow for the plurality of beliefs and freedom of action without restricting actions or expression of beliefs? I'm not really an ideology too often, but peace love and happiness come to mind. How do we get from discrimination to acceptance without sides?

[The Grand Nudger]

You’ve done entirely the opposite, lol? You could just reread your own comments and comparisons to see where I got that idea, and we both know that pointing it out to you will just create another attempt to reframe and bitch about the next thing.

Personally, I don’t think that “we” are going to get anywhere. You’re interested in some help maintaining the batshit proposal thst Christian belief is being censored in some meaningful way.

I wish that were true, but alas....it isn’t.

[arewethereyet]

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Freedom of belief is not freedom of action.

Believing otherwise, making these comparisons.. in some doomed game of both sides-ism.....is very Christian.

It was just you, no one was being equally anything, certainly not poisonous. We all live in this same society where s great number of things, including “cultural expressions” are discouraged or disallowed either de jure or de facto .

In your response to the quoted text you are reaffirming their contents.

---

Why is moving forward in the conversation some sort of Christian doomed side-ism? I took the time to see the other side of the equation and admitted my complicity in the problem. I was attempting to open up the topic to allow for discussion of how to allow for the plurality of beliefs and freedom of action can have an equanimity of outcome or whether equanimity of opportunity, with it's inherent social contrivances and restrictions of freedom is better. It's certainly better than nothing, but I've never really prescribed to the lesser of two evils strategy. I'm not really certain where you got the idea I thought anything was poisonous.


@arewethereyet I wasn't attempting to play word games or deceive anyone. Perhaps there was a miscommunication from this particular medium. I would really like to know what made you think this if you're willing to point it out to me or discuss it.

You worked way to hard at trying to convince that leading a prayer before a game is okay in an environment that isn't religion based.  You want us to say that you are well within your rights as a Christian to evangelize as you see fit...even, and especially, to other people's kids without the parents' prior knowledge and consent. You even wanted to rename your prayer circle a huddle.

Your BS remark about Hijabs is just so much fluff.  I see women in Hijabs all the time around where I live.  Not once has one of them approached me to convince me I should face east and pray with them.  

As I stated, my opinion of your honesty has fallen significantly since I came here last year and that opinion is not just based on this 'poor me I'm persecuted' thread.

[tackattack]

@Gae Bolga - No I'm interested in bringing all parties to the table and seeing both sides. Let's take it away from Religion then, if you don't think that will go anywhere or that I have some ulterior motive. Va Beach boardwalk has a no cursing law. Can I curse... yes. Should I curse.. apparently not according to that local legislation. Will I get penalized for cursing, depends. How does limiting something add do the plurality of the situation. I'm not advocating that anything goes, because hate speech and incitement is a thing. One side certainly feels constrained in what they can say and where, and the other side feels justified that taking what they're doing is better or right. Should we be curtailing unwanted social behaviors another way?

@arewethereyet -ok fair enough. I don't particularly want anyone here to say anything, nor do I believe we agree on a definition of evangelism, but I digress. You're right, the burqua(sp?) ban was a bit of fluff, yet there are burqua bans in some countries. It was meant to start a conversation on whether we should limit and on what criteria and that marginalizing effect restrictions have.