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Let me break this down for you Stat, using our beloved Deer. When you confidently state that the creation model relies on (and indeed testifies to speciation) you must then apply an arbitrary dividing line. If all species of deer descend from a single species, then why does that species then not descend from yet another? Pro-tip, it does. If you admit the mechanism but deny the timeline, or apply arbitrary limits on the mechanism itself, I'm going to ask you for evidence. You have none, so our conversation, as far as it can go, is over. Whats left is just me mocking you for your idiotic beliefs. You could put an end to the whole thing at any point by actually providing evidence. Which you wont, because it doesn't exist, because you're a complete nut. The creation model does not rely on anything even approximating any sort of science whatsoever. It is magic, start to finish. You're a believer of spells and fairies and Djinn, and if that's uncomfortable for you, it's not my problem.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
(October 14, 2011 at 8:50 pm)reverendjeremiah Wrote: Stat..I know I have probably said this before. If you REALLY want to know the answers to these questions, then enroll into a biology class.
Oh c’mon, so the next time an atheist asks me about Christianity I should just tell them to go to Sunday school? I have already been through numerous Biology classes, got all As. I just want to see if people know the theory well enough to defend it on here.
Quote: Are you HONESTLY wanting to know the answer to your question? Or do you give two shits about an accurate answer, as long as you can play your word games with us?...or why?
This is no accurate answer to these questions, that’s the problem.
Quote: You tell me...why did you ask that question, and what is it that you expect to hear?
To have a discussion, and so far I have heard about what I expected to. Not everyone in this thread has even been on the same page with their answers, which is quite interesting considering how much money goes into forcing Darwinism on students in our schools.
October 14, 2011 at 9:07 pm (This post was last modified: October 14, 2011 at 9:10 pm by The Grand Nudger.)
There is an accurate answer, supported by every field of biology imaginable. An answer that made predictions which have been borne out by repeated testing. If you aced biology you know the theory, and you're willfully misrepresenting it. Whats the d-word I have in mind?
So the people on these forums have recieved the same hit or miss education that you have, surprise surprise.
(we needn't invoke genetics to laugh at your gnomes btw, people saw through the BS before they knew what a gene was, it's just a nail in the coffin)
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
(October 14, 2011 at 8:56 pm)Statler Waldorf Wrote: How were they mentally and physiologically different from their offspring so they did not also classify has Homo sapiens?
Evolution is based in mutations. Hundreds of millions of mutations happen on a daily basis. Some are good, most are bad. Mutations are passed to the offspring. Bad mutations may kill now or decimate the species. Good mutations may prove helpful. Some of those mutations were a more developed brain. Dogs and cats have awareness and the ability to learn. Apes, whales and dolphins have well developed brains and a measurable level of intelligence.
It is quite obvious that your exposure to evolution was simply academic at best and you never really studied evolution as it is contrary to your beliefs.
The next thing you will probably ask is, "Why are there still monkeys?".
You make people miserable and there's nothing they can do about it, just like god.
-- Homer Simpson
God has no place within these walls, just as facts have no place within organized religion.
-- Superintendent Chalmers
Science is like a blabbermouth who ruins a movie by telling you how it ends. There are some things we don't want to know. Important things.
-- Ned Flanders
Once something's been approved by the government, it's no longer immoral.
-- The Rev Lovejoy
(October 14, 2011 at 8:59 pm)Rhythm Wrote: If all species of deer descend from a single species, then why does that species then not descend from yet another?
Simple, natural selection is a downhill mechanism, in nearly all observed cases (there is possibly one disputable exception) it reduces genetic information in the genome or at the best keeps it neutral. So you would expect there to be limitations within the animal kinds. This single cell to multi-cell organism fairy tale goes against the empirical evidence.
Quote: If you admit the mechanism but deny the timeline, or apply arbitrary limits on the mechanism itself, I'm going to ask you for evidence. You have none,
Why would you assume I have no evidence before you have asked me to present it? Since you like dogs as an example we will use that. Dogs were bred through a process of artificial selection, which really was just a souped up form of natural selection. From the original ancestors of dogs we were able to get some fabulous breeds of dogs, everything from the little Pomeranian to the Irish wolfhound. However, the more and more people bred these dogs the unhealthier they got. Why? It’s because the artificial selection (just like natural selection) was an information reducing mechanism. The dogs lost genetic information and became more susceptible to illness and defects. Could we reverse the process and breed a Pomeranian back into something resembling its common wolf-like ancestor? Nope, because all the information was lost. The common ancestor had more genetic information than present day dogs do. So there is some of your evidence.
Quote: so our conversation, as far as it can go, is over. Whats left is just me mocking you for your idiotic beliefs. You could put an end to the whole thing at any point by actually providing evidence. Which you wont, because it doesn't exist, because you're a complete nut. The creation model does not rely on anything even approximating any sort of science whatsoever. It is magic, start to finish. You're a believer of spells and fairies and Djinn, and if that's uncomfortable for you, it's not my problem.
Why do you rely so heavily on appeal to ridicule, straw man arguments, and ad Hominem? Is it really all you have got or are you just too lazy to avoid fallacious argumentation?
October 14, 2011 at 9:19 pm (This post was last modified: October 14, 2011 at 9:19 pm by The Grand Nudger.)
Its because I still don't have any evidence to consider (your last post included). So what can I say? You have absurd beliefs, which you repeatedly claim are factual. Show your work.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
October 14, 2011 at 9:20 pm (This post was last modified: October 14, 2011 at 9:21 pm by Statler Waldorf.)
(October 14, 2011 at 9:13 pm)IATIA Wrote: Evolution is based in mutations. Hundreds of millions of mutations happen on a daily basis. Some are good, most are bad. Mutations are passed to the offspring. Bad mutations may kill now or decimate the species. Good mutations may prove helpful. Some of those mutations were a more developed brain. Dogs and cats have awareness and the ability to learn. Apes, whales and dolphins have well developed brains and a measurable level of intelligence.
It is quite obvious that your exposure to evolution was simply academic at best and you never really studied evolution as it is contrary to your beliefs.
The next thing you will probably ask is, "Why are there still monkeys?".
Why would I ask another question? You dodged my first question. What were the parents like? Why did they not also classify as Homo Sapiens?
(October 14, 2011 at 9:19 pm)Rhythm Wrote: Its because I still don't have any evidence to consider (your last post included). So what can I say? You have absurd beliefs, which you repeatedly claim are factual. Show your work.
I gave you evidence. Your inability to comprehend my real-world example is not my concern. I really couldn't think of anything simpler to use as an illustration, I am sorry.
October 14, 2011 at 9:27 pm (This post was last modified: October 14, 2011 at 9:35 pm by The Grand Nudger.)
Oh you're sorry alright...lol.
"Creation of information
Further information: Physical information, Biosemiotics
Another new, and increasingly common, objection of creationists to evolution is that evolutionary mechanisms such as mutation cannot generate new information. Creationists such as William A. Dembski, Werner Gitt, and Lee Spetner have attempted to use information theory to dispute evolution. Dembski has argued that life demonstrates specified complexity, and that evolution without an intelligent agent cannot account for the generation of information that would be required to produce specified complexity. The Christian apologetics site Answers in Genesis, for example, makes frequent appeals to concepts from information theory in its objections to evolution and affirmations of the Genesis account of Creation; "[I]t should be clear that a rigorous application of the science of information is devastating to materialistic philosophy in the guise of evolution, and strongly supportive of Genesis creation."[138]
These claims have been widely rejected by the scientific community; new information is regularly generated in evolution, whenever a novel mutation or gene duplication arises. Dramatic examples of entirely new, unique traits arising through mutation have been observed in recent years, such as the evolution of nylon-eating bacteria, which developed new enzymes to efficiently digest a material that never existed before the modern era.[139][140] In fact, when an organism is considered together with the environment it evolved in, there is no need to account for the creation of information. The information in the genome forms a record of how it was possible to survive in a particular environment. It is not created, but rather gathered from the environment through research—by trial and error, as mutating organisms either reproduce or fail.[141]
A related argument against evolution is that most mutations are harmful.[142] However, the vast majority of mutations are neutral, and the minority of mutations which are beneficial or harmful are often situational; a mutation that is harmful in one environment may be helpful in another.[143]"
You could have googled that yourself and you would have actually learned something, troll. Don't even have to come out of pocket for an actual education. I dont want to hear anything else about loss of information (or evolution not being observed) until you've explained nylon eating bacteria...with a verse from the bible.
(for the record, no one does christianity a greater disservice than those like you, who would lie in such a blatant way to promote it)
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
"Creation of information
Further information: Physical information, Biosemiotics
Another new, and increasingly common, objection of creationists to evolution is that evolutionary mechanisms such as mutation cannot generate new information. Creationists such as William A. Dembski, Werner Gitt, and Lee Spetner have attempted to use information theory to dispute evolution. Dembski has argued that life demonstrates specified complexity, and that evolution without an intelligent agent cannot account for the generation of information that would be required to produce specified complexity. The Christian apologetics site Answers in Genesis, for example, makes frequent appeals to concepts from information theory in its objections to evolution and affirmations of the Genesis account of Creation; "[I]t should be clear that a rigorous application of the science of information is devastating to materialistic philosophy in the guise of evolution, and strongly supportive of Genesis creation."[138]
These claims have been widely rejected by the scientific community; new information is regularly generated in evolution, whenever a novel mutation or gene duplication arises. Dramatic examples of entirely new, unique traits arising through mutation have been observed in recent years, such as the evolution of nylon-eating bacteria, which developed new enzymes to efficiently digest a material that never existed before the modern era.[139][140] In fact, when an organism is considered together with the environment it evolved in, there is no need to account for the creation of information. The information in the genome forms a record of how it was possible to survive in a particular environment. It is not created, but rather gathered from the environment through research—by trial and error, as mutating organisms either reproduce or fail.[141]
A related argument against evolution is that most mutations are harmful.[142] However, the vast majority of mutations are neutral, and the minority of mutations which are beneficial or harmful are often situational; a mutation that is harmful in one environment may be helpful in another.[143]"
You could have googled that yourself and you would have actually learned something, troll. Don't even have to come out of pocket for an actual education. I dont want to hear anything else about loss of information (or evolution not being observed) until you've explained nylon eating bacteria...with a verse from the bible.
October 14, 2011 at 9:37 pm (This post was last modified: October 14, 2011 at 9:43 pm by The Grand Nudger.)
Creation journals? I'm sorry I thought we were talking science.
(do you get to link creation journals often at the USDA btw?)
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
