God, Energy and Matter

[Aegon]

I am not sure I'd be quoting Alan Watts to support my views, but I nevertheless find myself in substantial agreement with you just the same, given your careful disavowal of the supernatural (which I see as an utterly illogical and useless concept) and your clear statement that God is neither a necessary nor sufficient explanation for anything unknown. I also very much like your understanding of monotheism as essentially an ego inflation issue. I tend to approach it more as founded on a failed epistemology (religious faith) but the popularity of embracing such an unsupportable belief-system IS fundamentally grounded in arrogance -- in other words, a failed epistemology combined with an utter lack of epistemological humility.

Sorry Mordant. I did ignore your post. I was overcome by a large numbers of replies and by human nature I answered the short ones first.

You pretty much supported why I'm the opposite of egotistical. I agree that we all come from the universe and are just another facet of the one whole existence. God is all and we are a part of the "all". Fooled by our inaccurate perception of the world in which we live we tend to think we are separate entities and that is where ego comes in. This is what separates us from God. You demonstrated how we all have an inaccurate view of the universe in which we live. We don't see things as they rally are. That includes atheists and theists. Once we realize that we're part of God and thus "one", then we can lose our sense of self-importance and move towards reunion with God. Through our natural perception of the world, we can't see this.

I'm happy to have read all your opinions and I can understand where you're coming from. But, honestly, I can't stop believing God unless he stops revealing himself to me. And the way he reveals himself to me isn't through my faulty natural view of things.

That was my post, but I gotcha.

I don't get it. Why are you adding God in it?? Where is it necessary?? I don't understand why you're making that presupposition! I don't understand!!!!

[Lek]

I don't get it. Why are you adding God in it?? Where is it necessary?? I don't understand why you're making that presupposition! I don't understand!!!!

I don't get the reasons why and the hows either. I just believe because God has impressed it on me.

---

So, in my 'condition' (the inability to believe existential claims without demonstrable evidence and reasoned argument), what is my equivalent to AA?

I wasn't bringing in AA to say we all need an "AA". I was just making the point that alcoholics can do something to change their situations despite a physical predisposition by God to become addicted.

In your theology, can anything happen that is not god's will?

No. But I don't apply that in a manner that God is holding the puppet strings and making us do what he wants. I think that he willed us to make mistakes when he put us in this world, so that when we make wrong decisions it is according to his will. It is also his will that we will return to him and that is what will happen.

[The Grand Nudger]

Why would someone want to do something about their “condition” of requiring evidence and well reasoned arguments....and, honestly, is this what the god who created Simon to be so would consider a condition?

Just to be clear, are you leaning into the idea that we are created sick and commanded to be well?

I think that’s brave.....and if that’s what god revealed to you I can see why you would believe as much.

[Lek]

Why would someone want to do something about their “condition” of requiring evidence and well reasoned arguments....and, honestly, is this what the god who created Simon to be so would consider a condition?

Just to be clear, are you leaning into the idea that we are created sick and commanded to be well?

I think that’s brave.....and if that’s what god revealed to you I can see why you would believe as much.

I never said Simon had a "condition". I just agreed with him that God made him the way he is, but that the "way we are" doesn't control all our decisions.

[Abaddon_ire]

My atheism is the position, that I am unconvinced that god(s) exist. This is a provisional position I hold, not a dogmatic one.

How and why is my position as stated above, BS?

If the only thing that will convince me that god(s) exist is demonstrable evidence and reasoned argument to support the claim, how am I being unreasonable?

If your god exists, didn't he/she/it/they design me that way?

God made everything the way it is.  God made us to have a desire for the spouses of others or to eat a whole bunch of doughnuts.  He made alcoholics to have physical makeups that cause them to crave alcohol, but some attend AA meetings and take measures to stop drinking.  Yeah, God made you the way you are, but you can do anything you want.

Ah. The celestial thug appears.

Frankly, if your god did such things and appeared before me I would reject him as worthy of any worship by anyone.

You worship an immoral god. You are better than your god.

[Lek]

God made everything the way it is.  God made us to have a desire for the spouses of others or to eat a whole bunch of doughnuts.  He made alcoholics to have physical makeups that cause them to crave alcohol, but some attend AA meetings and take measures to stop drinking.  Yeah, God made you the way you are, but you can do anything you want.

Ah. The celestial thug appears.

Frankly, if your god did such things and appeared before me I would reject him as worthy of any worship by anyone.

You worship an immoral god. You are better than your god.

God is all there is. Whatever he does to us he does to himself.

[Abaddon_ire]

Ah. The celestial thug appears.

Frankly, if your god did such things and appeared before me I would reject him as worthy of any worship by anyone.

You worship an immoral god. You are better than your god.

God is all there is.  Whatever he does to us he does to himself.

Not according to your definition.

ETA: If you can't even agree with yourself, what are the chances that you are even vaguely rational? Does god determine everything? You have already claimed he is powerless against us. Could you at least attempt to keep your fable self consistent?

[Rahn127]

Lek, god revealed to me that he's going to torture you for eternity.

I asked him why ?

He said "For the hell of it."

It's part of his plan that you will suffer for all time and there is nothing you can do about it.

I suppose you could simply NOT believe me.
Do you think that's something you could do ?
Not believe ?

[Lek]

God is all there is.  Whatever he does to us he does to himself.

Not according to your definition.

ETA: If you can't even agree with yourself, what are the chances that you are even vaguely rational? Does god determine everything? You have already claimed he is powerless against us. Could you at least attempt to keep your fable self consistent?

When I say it's his will that we make mistakes that means I'm saying he's powerless against us? Point out where I said he's powerless against us. He can do whatever he wants and I never said otherwise.

---

Lek, god revealed to me that he's going to torture you for eternity.

I asked him why ?

He said "For the hell of it."

It's part of his plan that you will suffer for all time and there is nothing you can do about it.

I suppose you could simply NOT believe me.
Do you think that's something you could do ?
Not believe ?

Yep.

[Abaddon_ire]

Not according to your definition.

ETA: If you can't even agree with yourself, what are the chances that you are even vaguely rational? Does god determine everything? You have already claimed he is powerless against us. Could you at least attempt to keep your fable self consistent?

When I say it's his will that we make mistakes that means I'm saying he's powerless against us?  Point out where I said he's powerless against us. He can do whatever he wants and I never said otherwise.

---

Lek, god revealed to me that he's going to torture you for eternity.

I asked him why ?

He said "For the hell of it."

It's part of his plan that you will suffer for all time and there is nothing you can do about it.

I suppose you could simply NOT believe me.
Do you think that's something you could do ?
Not believe ?

Yep.

So there is no free-will?