The brazen bull in the Quran?

[onlinebiker]

If you mean the golden calf of the Israelites, it was solid.

If you mean the brazen bull, as described, I don't think it would work.  The fire was built under the bull to roast the victim inside.  This means the fire would have been built on top the base which would also roast the poor sod blowing through the tube.

Boru

Depends on how big the base was. If you wanted the calf to be life-sized and tower over the mob then a pyramidal base maybe ten feet high would be good. If you built this with a wall close behind it you could have a hatch in the wall to access the base and leave it open for ventilation. (Put vents in the top of the base, disguised if it's not high enough.)

Heat rises.

My SO's alleged cat (I insist it's a tribble) has a favorite spot - under the wood burning stove - and will lie there with a roaring fire going. It only gets about 100f.

[Gawdzilla Sama]

Yep. Not really an issue.

---

My SO's alleged cat (I insist it's a tribble) has a favorite spot - under the wood burning stove - and will lie there with a roaring fire going. It only gets about 100f.

You wouldn't be using the singular if it was a tribble. "These amazing creatures are born pregnant" Wait, that's a GINO.

[arewethereyet]

Seems that Atlas is just brimming with brazen bull****.

[Rev. Rye]

I should point out that the history of the Brazen Bull is sketchy. There has never been any hard proof that it was ever used. It was most documented as an alleged torture device invented by Perillos for Phalaris, tyrant of Akragas (now Agrigento), Sicily. Phalaris tested it out by throwing Perillos in it, and Phalaris himself was thrown into it when he was overthrown in 554 BC. Even this is contested, and all the claims it was used after Phalaris' overthrow is sketchy, at best.

[Gawdzilla Sama]

I was stationed about thirty miles from Agrigento. They had a small display there and plenty of tourist crap for sale. Wasn't anything special, just a detour on our way to Corleone.

[WinterHold]

The brazen bull is an ancient torture method that includes the "roasting of the victim" to death inside a "bronze" bull. The bull made a sound when the victims start to scream from the pain.

It was claimed to be invented by the ancient Greeks by Diodorus Siculus, recounting the story in Bibliotheca historica :

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brazen_bull

But the sound produced by the bull does open a new theory to me when looking at this ancient passage from the Quran:


The bible has a similar story; but it never mentions the "lowing sound". The brazen bull is unique for its sound; just like the mentioned calf is unique for its sound.

Burnt offerings were claimed by the bible to be "offered" for the calf. So were they put inside it; and it is the origin of the brazen bull ? but instead of "offerings" people were put inside later by the Greeks ?

Burnt offerings in the Bible were generally made on an altar in the open air inside the Temple, there's no suggestion that they were made inside a bronze bull.

I think the differences in the 'golden calf' story in the Bible and the Quran are the result of sloppy plagiarism, nothing more.  Additionally, stories about the brazen bull as a torture device had been around for more than six hundred years before Mohammed got round to commercial religion - it's entirely possible that he'd heard about it and incorporated the 'lowing sound' into his book.

Boru

We don't have to take the literal story for granted; don't we?

The brazen bull has a door used to stuff people inside; so it would make a lot of sense that offerings were stuffed inside before it became a torture instrument.

We also know that most pagans used to burn people as offerings.

---

The lowing sound could have been produced by someone in the base of the idol blowing a horn.

Makes a lot of sense.
The "golden calf" may had produced it lowing sound this way, then little by little Greeks developed it into the infamous brazen bull.

---

Don't think it would have been big enough.

Alternately, Mohammed could have gotten the story wrong, or could have added the bit about 'lowing' for atmosphere.

Boru

I doubt it.
Mohammed -peace be upon him- was not an encyclopedia of ancient stories. He couldn't even read.

---

Seems that Atlas is just brimming with brazen bull****.

It's a personal theory.

---

I should point out that the history of the Brazen Bull is sketchy. There has never been any hard proof that it was ever used. It was most documented as an alleged torture device invented by Perillos for Phalaris, tyrant of Akragas (now Agrigento), Sicily. Phalaris tested it out by throwing Perillos in it, and Phalaris himself was thrown into it when he was overthrown in 554 BC. Even this is contested, and all the claims it was used after Phalaris' overthrow is sketchy, at best.

Do you know any other historical mentions of this device ?

[Rev. Rye]

There are some claims that it was used by Romans to persecute Christians in the days between Nero and Constantine, but those are generally agreed to be just folklore. Indeed, its use by Phalaris isn’t universally attested.

[BrianSoddingBoru4]

The brazen bull has a door used to stuff people inside; so it would make a lot of sense that offerings were stuffed inside before it became a torture instrument.

Assumimg the Brazen Bull was a thing and that it was Greek, it wouldn't have been used for offerings.  The Greeks did their burnt offerings on an open altar outside the appropriate temple.  There's no record (or reason to believe) that they did it inside a metal bull.

Boru

[The Grand Nudger]

I'm pretty sure big mo being unable to read would have contributed to him getting the details of stories..that he couldn't read..wrong.

That's a big component of how islam was constructed. An illiterate warlord butchering the foundational myths of another military power.

[Rev. Rye]

The brazen bull has a door used to stuff people inside; so it would make a lot of sense that offerings were stuffed inside before it became a torture instrument.

Assumimg the Brazen Bull was a thing and that it was Greek, it wouldn't have been used for offerings.  The Greeks did their burnt offerings on an open altar outside the appropriate temple.  There's no record (or reason to believe) that they did it inside a metal bull.

Boru

Even in the stories that claimed it was a thing (once again, assuming it wasn’t the invention of a historian with a grudge) it was never used as an vehicle for sacrifices. It was claimed to be invented specifically as a torture/execution device. And, as far as I could find, the people of Akragas weren’t really ones for human sacrifice.