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RE: Calculus, Logic, Music and the Human Brain
October 26, 2011 at 9:08 pm
(October 15, 2011 at 10:59 am)IATIA Wrote: They are still Homo Sapiens. The previous 'man' may have only had the capacity for quadratic equations and the one before that, simple math.
At the risk of getting sucked into one of Statler's threads...
I look at it this way.
Prehistoric homo sapiens and I have two things in common with respect to advanced math. Like them, I lack the knowledge needed to perform calculus - I never learned how, and clearly neither did they as it had not been invented. Also like them, I also lack the necessity to do so - calculus isn't necessary in my personal life or career, and it wasn't needed to hunt game, herd goats, build structures, perform agriculture, etc. I have no need to learn calculus, nor did they.
I don't lack the cognitive capacity to learn calculus if I chose to. Did prehistoric man? The question is largely moot, as before the advent of written language, there would be no way to pass down the knowledge to do so - not to mention as I said before, that calculus had not been invented. Whether or not prehistoric homo sapiens had close to the cognitive capacity we do is unknown, and is probably unknowable.
Further, I note that prehistoric man apparently had no problem with learning and inventing things that were useful to them. Same as us - we have the added benefit of thousands of years of knowledge and discovery since the advent of written language, and that's enough.
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RE: Calculus, Logic, Music and the Human Brain
October 26, 2011 at 9:21 pm
(October 26, 2011 at 9:02 pm)Statler Waldorf Wrote: No argument mode here, I am in a pretty chipper mood this evening. I already conceded to you that you could call birds singing music; I just don’t think it’s the same sort of thing as human music. I also think the only reason we consider it music is because humans have a musical ear. It’d be a stretch to say it is music to the bird itself.
I never said birds could appreciate music nor that it was the same as human music, only that music was in the gene pool long before man came about.
As to an 'ear for music', I contend that many artists can disprove that. 
(October 26, 2011 at 9:02 pm)Statler Waldorf Wrote: I found something you said interesting….you said as far as our genes could take us? How is there anything past our genes? How can we do or think anything that is not determined in our genetic make-up? That seems like you are wandering astray from the naturalistic path on that one.
This is where I am still on the bench. We are either 100% biochemical robots without free will or control or we are not. If we have an ability that is not controlled by our biochemical makeup, then it must be external to the body. If it is external to the body, then there is the problem of the integration of this will/mind to the physical body. On the other hand, the body does not exist except in our minds (quasi 'dream state') which solves the issue of attachment. This, of course, presents a whole new set of problems. And the god thing cannot work in these scenarios either. (No preaching.)
You make people miserable and there's nothing they can do about it, just like god.
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RE: Calculus, Logic, Music and the Human Brain
October 26, 2011 at 9:30 pm
(This post was last modified: October 26, 2011 at 9:33 pm by The Grand Nudger.)
There's a third option Iatia. Our definitions for things such as "free will" are insufficient due to lack of evidence/knowledge, leading to problems of thought where none exist in actuality. A bit like not knowing algebra and then concluding that there is some problem inherent with algebra due to our own ignorance.
Sorry, a 4th option, rather.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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RE: Calculus, Logic, Music and the Human Brain
October 26, 2011 at 10:01 pm
(October 26, 2011 at 9:30 pm)Rhythm Wrote: There's a third option Iatia. Our definitions for things such as "free will" are insufficient due to lack of evidence/knowledge, leading to problems of thought where none exist in actuality. A bit like not knowing algebra and then concluding that there is some problem inherent with algebra due to our own ignorance.
Sorry, a 4th option, rather.
I do not agree with all your points (as you, mine), but seldom do I disagree. This time. Yep.
The chemical reactions in the body create thought. How can we have any control? To have true control, the mind and thoughts must be outside the chemical reactions. This is where the problem comes into play. Where is that mind? I understand that we have a certain lack of knowledge, but the fact remains, either we are controlled by our bodies or there is some external force that can control some (and if some, then all) biochemical functions of the body. There must be some process that is not a result of the biochemical physiology of thought, but rather the 'cause'.
Personally, I believe that all reality, all that exists, is in my mind, which is contained within a singularity. i.e., nothing exists but awareness.
You make people miserable and there's nothing they can do about it, just like god.
-- Homer Simpson
God has no place within these walls, just as facts have no place within organized religion.
-- Superintendent Chalmers
Science is like a blabbermouth who ruins a movie by telling you how it ends. There are some things we don't want to know. Important things.
-- Ned Flanders
Once something's been approved by the government, it's no longer immoral.
-- The Rev Lovejoy
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RE: Calculus, Logic, Music and the Human Brain
October 26, 2011 at 10:05 pm
(This post was last modified: October 26, 2011 at 10:09 pm by The Grand Nudger.)
Do we have any control? You're assuming that we do in the "external idea" but why would we, just because it's external? Maybe theres another layer of control over that, turtles all the way down. I'm also not sure that I enjoy being one of your errant and dissenting thoughts..lol, living in the confines of your head..within some nebulous singularity.
"free will"
"true control"
"external force"
You know what I want to see for any of these, yes? Begins with an E.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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RE: Calculus, Logic, Music and the Human Brain
October 26, 2011 at 10:09 pm
(October 26, 2011 at 10:05 pm)Rhythm Wrote: Do we have any control? You're assuming that we do in the "external idea" but why would we, just because it's external? Maybe theres another layer of control over that, turtles all the way down. I'm also not sure that I enjoy being one of your errant and dissenting thoughts..lol, living in the confines of your head..within some nebulous singularity.
This why I am still on the bench with this idea. If we have no control, then Occam's Razor applied, biochemical thought is all that is necessary.
You make people miserable and there's nothing they can do about it, just like god.
-- Homer Simpson
God has no place within these walls, just as facts have no place within organized religion.
-- Superintendent Chalmers
Science is like a blabbermouth who ruins a movie by telling you how it ends. There are some things we don't want to know. Important things.
-- Ned Flanders
Once something's been approved by the government, it's no longer immoral.
-- The Rev Lovejoy
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RE: Calculus, Logic, Music and the Human Brain
October 27, 2011 at 1:14 am
(October 26, 2011 at 9:02 pm)Statler Waldorf Wrote: Scientific fact is not determined by consensus or majority.
Unfortunately, to a certain extent, it is. Just ask the folks before the Wright brothers took off. Sometimes what is perceived as a fact may be revealed to be otherwise with new information.
You make people miserable and there's nothing they can do about it, just like god.
-- Homer Simpson
God has no place within these walls, just as facts have no place within organized religion.
-- Superintendent Chalmers
Science is like a blabbermouth who ruins a movie by telling you how it ends. There are some things we don't want to know. Important things.
-- Ned Flanders
Once something's been approved by the government, it's no longer immoral.
-- The Rev Lovejoy
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RE: Calculus, Logic, Music and the Human Brain
October 27, 2011 at 11:01 am
(This post was last modified: October 27, 2011 at 11:01 am by The Grand Nudger.)
If new information could be provided to turn his bad science into good science we wouldn't be having this discussion. Until such a time, I call epic BS.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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RE: Calculus, Logic, Music and the Human Brain
October 27, 2011 at 4:35 pm
(October 26, 2011 at 9:07 pm)Rhythm Wrote: It's determined by evidence. In this case, the evidence says bullshit, next?
Fallacy of reification, evidence doesn’t “say” anything. You are too easy.
(October 26, 2011 at 9:21 pm)IATIA Wrote: This is where I am still on the bench. We are either 100% biochemical robots without free will or control or we are not. If we have an ability that is not controlled by our biochemical makeup, then it must be external to the body. If it is external to the body, then there is the problem of the integration of this will/mind to the physical body. On the other hand, the body does not exist except in our minds (quasi 'dream state') which solves the issue of attachment. This, of course, presents a whole new set of problems. And the god thing cannot work in these scenarios either. (No preaching.)
Not to mention you have the whole quandary where physical processes can affect mental processes, but mental processes can also affect physical processes. 
The God of scripture does solve the problem I would contend. However, if you are a true consistent naturalist I believe you would have to be a determinist on this issue. Which would raise an even bigger question, why are you even having this discussion with me? If our thoughts are merely the result of physical processes in the brain, then why do your physical processes care about what thoughts and beliefs my physical processes are producing in my brain? Interesting stuff.
(October 27, 2011 at 1:14 am)IATIA Wrote: Unfortunately, to a certain extent, it is. Just ask the folks before the Wright brothers took off. Sometimes what is perceived as a fact may be revealed to be otherwise with new information.
Not really, what we perceive as facts may be demonstrated to no longer be facts in the future, hence why majority and consensus have never determined what is and is not scientific fact. If it really worked the opposite way we would never progress because nobody could “buck the system” with a new idea.
(October 27, 2011 at 11:01 am)Rhythm Wrote: If new information could be provided to turn his bad science into good science we wouldn't be having this discussion. Until such a time, I call epic BS.
Again, this is nothing more than a fallacious appeal to popularity. The majority does not determine what science is, nor does it determine what is and is not fact. The sooner you drop that canard the sooner you will be on your way to a better understanding of how the world works.
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RE: Calculus, Logic, Music and the Human Brain
October 27, 2011 at 4:38 pm
(This post was last modified: October 27, 2011 at 4:38 pm by The Grand Nudger.)
I understand that you would like to be the one who determines what good science and bad science is, along the lines of your own delusions, but again, that's not how it's done. It's evidence of gtfo, as usual.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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