Separation of Science and State

[Belacqua]

Separation of church and state back near the founding of the country had to do with reduction of religious persecution by the various sects.

This I think was true in the case of America.

The issue is far older, of course. It was a heatedly debated topic in the 13th and 14th centuries. Dante and many other important Christian thinkers were firmly in favor of a separation of church and state. In those days, Emperor and Pope.

[The Grand Nudger]

In the 13th and 14th centuries, and in the mind of..say, saint tommy - who influenced those thinkers...the separation of church and state was a non starter. Christians in that period believed that the ideal state (or city) was one which served the purpose of creating a state (or city) of god.

Dominionists.

[downbeatplumb]

The question: Should there be any separation between science and government (synonymous to church and state)? What should the relationship between science and government be? Are there any dangers in that relationship?

Reasonably one would want a close relationship. But two points make me question this:

1. Similar to the Inquisition (the poster boy of the evils that church and state can create), you also have the evils that science and state can create (The Tuskegee syphilis experiment; water-boarding and interrogation tactics; and whatever experiments the Nazis did). 

2. Their influence on each other is less than ideal: When politicians use science for political purposes, they tend to butcher it. For example, California passed a law requiring officers to be screened using the Implicit Bias test (IAT), despite the inventors of the test being clear it is not diagnostic. And on the flip side, when science is influenced by politics, it shapes the kinds of questions scientists ask and the types of answers that emerge. The field of behavioral genetics has struggled because it is not politically correct.

This would be like separating maths from the economy. You need science to find shit out to direct what the government does. Otherwise its just people doing stuff that they kinda reckon is right with no basis to think that. Worse they might do stuff according what they "believe" which leads to horror.

[Apollo]

There are three fundamental pillars of a society that always interplay: Knowledge, governance, and behavior. Knowledge is basically science—knowing the nature of things (time and space, and manifestations of laws of nature) and use that to survive.

Governance and behavior (collective level) too work best when they are informed by knowledge. Why? Because it allows to make optimal decisions.

Religion is a primitive form of “science”— a lot of strategic guess work based on little known facts about nature—mainly what we could experience through senses. It is no longer relevant in our world as it can no longer provide satisfactory explanation of the reality. Using it to make decisions in modern world is like using clay tablets to keep financial records.

[Sal]

^that is at very succinct way to put it.

[Anomalocaris]

There are three fundamental pillars of a society that always interplay: Knowledge, governance, and behavior. Knowledge is basically science—knowing the nature of things (time and space, and manifestations of laws of nature) and use that to survive.

Governance and behavior (collective level) too work best when they are informed by knowledge. Why? Because it allows to make optimal decisions.

Religion is a primitive form of “science”— a lot of strategic guess work based on little known facts about nature—mainly what we could experience through senses. It is no longer relevant in our world as it can no longer provide satisfactory explanation of the reality. Using it to make decisions in modern world is like using clay tablets to keep financial records.

Religion is hardly a primitive form of science.   It is a form of governance that is without knowledge but nonetheless pretend to be informed.

[John 6IX Breezy]

Religion is hardly a primitive form of science.   It is a form of governance that is without knowledge but nonetheless pretend to be informed.

I don't agree that religion, broadly, is a form of governance, but particular churches can be organized with such structures.

[The Grand Nudger]

Religion

-a unified system of beliefs and practices relative to sacred things, i.e., things set apart and forbidden—beliefs and practices which unite in one single moral community called a Church, all those who adhere to them.

There is no religion that can avoid making normative statements, and all normative systems are ways of organizing society.

[John 6IX Breezy]

There is no religion that can avoid making normative statements

Why not?

[The Grand Nudger]

-a unified system of beliefs and practices relative to sacred things, i.e., things set apart and forbidden—beliefs and practices which unite in one single moral community called a Church, all those who adhere to them.