So... I had a request from a professor

[Voltair]

Before I say anything else I am NOT trolling, making this up, etc.

I currently attend a Christian college and am a recent atheist. One of my professors is teaching a foundations of faith class and wants to present atheism's arguments. He is not interested in heaping up straw men so he would prefer to not use one who is going to be a bad example.

For the record I attend Freed-Hardeman University. The reason I am still here is I deconverted this summer and am a senior so I am riding out the last bit of it.

My de-conversion was not really based on an atheist author so I don't know of many resources off-hand.

He may poke around with Dawkins a bit I think but I was wondering if there was perhaps something that went a little deeper than the God Delusion. I think Dawkins is a very intelligent and thoughtful individual but I don't think the God Delusion would be the best there is to offer and yes I have read it

Look at it this way, your book recommendation may actually be seen by Christians in a faith class. I think what I will do is gather the suggestions and send him the list so he can go through it. The class he is teaching I think is a generalized class so it would be great if the books recommended dealt with the issue as a whole.

If there is an opportunity for people to get a good dose of the atheistic point of view I would love to be able to recommend the best representations of it.

So with all that in mind... any particular recommendations?

[leo-rcc]

Atheism doesn't need arguments, it is nothing more than not accepting any claims of deities. We do not need to argue anything out of existence, theists need to define exactly what it is they are arguing for, acquire evidence for this this thing, and present them to atheists if they want to have any chance of accepting their hypothesis.

If this professor is serious about why we don't need to argue against, look up "The dragon in my garage" by Carl Sagan.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jJRy3Kl_z5E

[Erinome]

Carl Sagan's "A Demon Haunted World" is a good one.

Anything by The Hitch, or Sam Harris. Bertrand Russel, Friedrich Nietzsche, or Douglas Adams.

[Kayenneh]

As for man-made gods, I think we can safely say that they don't exist. We don't think automatically when there's a thunderstorm around: "What did we do again to piss Ukko/Thor off this time?!" or ask Wollunqua or Kichijōten for help when after the fifth month of trying we're still not pregnant. No-one today would even assume that bad things happens because of these deities, so why would the ones who are around nowadays be any different?

The whole definition of a god seems to be missing, which makes this whole topic hard to debate, since the debaters might not be on the same page. As for the "life-force" of the universe or a "kick-starter" of the Big Bang, I cannot say, but unless we get some proof I'm happy with saying: "I don't know and no, I don't think so". The whole idea of a creator seems like a simplistic and childish approach to describe our universe. Because if the universe could be created, then who created the creator? It's just a way to push the problem away instead of actually investigating what is going on around us.

You've got some good reading tips already, I could add some YouTubers, who I think have some decent points on the matter, Thunderf00t, DarkMatter2525 and TheLivingDinosaur. I think it'll be enough to mention these, since there will be a multitude of links to others via their videos.

[Voltair]

I appreciate the book mentions so far. I did read Carl Sagan's book but it seemed to deal with it more indirectly. I will mention it specifically, if for nothing else, the invisible dragon excerpt as it makes an awesome point. The reason the class wouldn't go through all of Sagan's book is first of all it is a huge book and second of all it is a general foundations of faith class.

There is not enough time in a semester to thoroughly read through all of those books etc. Well there would be if it was a graduate class but there is no way an undergrad class would assign multiple books of that length to read I don't think.

I am not saying atheism needs to defend itself I am just trying to provide a professor with literature to use in his class. I agree that the burden of proof is on Christianity. Besides just telling him where the burden of proof lies is there a book that talks about Christianity having the burden of proof and dealing with issues such as that?

A book on flaws in Christian arguments would be perfect although I don't know if an exhaustive one exists. Bertrand Russell may deal with those but I am unfamiliar with his book so I don't know how well/if he deals with all/most arguments.

I am sure he is going to probably discuss what is supposedly wrong with the atheistic ideas but that is also why I wanted to put some of the best in there. It is odd being at a Christian, Church of Christ, school and being an atheist.

Btw is the Hitch Christopher Hitchens?

[Joe Bloe]

Atheism: The Case Against God (George Smith)

PDF here:
http://www.andrew.cmu.edu/user/jksadegh/...1.1%29.pdf

Regarding the meaning of atheism, Smith writes:

“Theism” is defined as the “belief in a god or gods.” The term “theism” is sometimes used to designate the belief in a particular kind of god—the personal god of monotheism—but as used throughout this book, “theism” signifies the belief in any god or number of gods. The prefix “a” means “without,” so the term “a-theism” literally means “without theism,” or without belief in a god or gods. Atheism, therefore, is the absence of theistic belief. One who does not believe in the existence of a god or supernatural being is properly designated as an atheist.

Atheism is sometimes defined as “the belief that there is no God of any kind,” or the claim that a god cannot exist. While these are categories of atheism, they do not exhaust the meaning of atheism—and they are somewhat misleading with respect to the basic nature of atheism. Atheism, in its basic form, is not a belief: it is the absence of belief. An atheist is not primarily a person who believes that a god does not exist; rather, he does not believe in the existence of a god.

[Oldandeasilyconfused]

If there is an opportunity for people to get a good dose of the atheistic point of view I would love to be able to recommend the best representations of it.

Oh for fluck sake! ANOTHER one

There is no such thing as 'an atheist point of view' except on the existence god() IE he doesn't believe in 'em.

So with all that in mind... any particular recommendations?

Yeah, go away and find out the actual meaning of the word 'atheism' before you come to an atheist forum.

I'm peeved; you have zero credibility with me. That's because we have had people of your self description here before. Without exception they lied about their agenda,turning out to be intellectually and morally dishonest. Plus the 'ex-atheist' claim is bit of a worry.


PS it's spelled V-o-l-t-a-i-r-e

[Rev. Rye]

Why I am not a Christian by Bertrand Russell. It destroyed the last vestiges of faith I had. It should serve you well.

[5thHorseman]

PS it's spelled V-o-l-t-a-i-r-e

Already been pointed out to OP, he hadn't heard of Voltaire until it was pointed out, just a coincidence apparently.

[Voltair]

What would you like me to say or do to prove to you I am not drinking the "kool aid". I am aware that you have had people do this before to only come crawling out of the closet later and try and do conversions.

Would you like me to tell you that the cosmological, teleological, and moral arguments for the existence of God are arguments from ignorance? Would you like me to tell you that the Bible has little to no contemporary accounts verifying anything except that there was a man said to be followed by a group calling themselves Christians?

One of my favorite ideas is actually Carl Sagan's Invisible Dragon in my Garage as well.

Would you like me to also point out that there is questionable dating and some of the books may have been composed in the 2nd century? I don't buy Christianity and I think its "creed" book is unreliable. I don't trust a book which has no reliable secondary data to back it up.

That still may not convince you that I am not a closet Christian so you can look up my post called "Hell - where is the justice?" If you want in the Christianity sub-section. If that still is not enough I can give you the book list I read before/after I lost my faith including Bart D. Ehrman, Carl Sagan, and others. I also visited Greta Christina's blog and various other places.

I did not mean to say Atheism is not a theology. When I mean the "best" atheistic point of view I mean essentially the best arguments against the existence of God. I am fully aware that atheism is not a belief system and I am fully aware that. I am also familiar with arguments against God. THE ONLY THING I was asking for is book recommendations that display these arguments in the best way.

I did not read such books during my de-conversion I used forums like these, like freeratio.org, like an ex CoC support forum, a whole lot of thinking, etc. That is why I figured I would ask it here. If my post came off like the typical "hidden theist" you encounter on here I apologize.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Anyway I will go ahead and put the books on the list for my professor. I appreciate it guys and ill put as many on the list as you think would be good. After talking to him today it sounds like he is looking for a good 15-20 page excerpt that gives a good presentation of the ideas. I will ask him to get more specific in what he is trying to look for.

I say the atheistic viewpoint a lot and I don't mean to say atheism is a belief system but I use that language often enough. Again I mean the idea of there not being a God and the arguments/ideas against such an idea. This includes the idea of the burden of proof etc, and I already mentioned/put on the list Carl Sagan's Invisible Dragon story which I think shows that very well.

As far as my name Voltair goes I really did not know of Voltaire. It was a random name I made for a video game character I was playing in Dungeon Fighter Online.

The ex-atheist claim? I didn't claim to be an ex-atheist unless I mistyped something, I thought I claimed to be an ex-Christian -.0. If you want my entire position against God completely fleshed out I can do that for you as well if you still are not convinced by anything I put above. Again there may be nothing I can do to convince you that I am not a secret Christian.

Although it would be damn near pointless considering I have no idea how I would convince anyone to believe in a God much less Christianity. But again that may be just me using deception to "trick" you so I can pounce on you with the holy word of jeebus and save your damned soul from Hell.