Isn’t pantheism the same thing as atheism?

[Belacqua]

That's true.

It means that because he is pure act, all potencies in the universe are actualized and aimed toward him.

Some people thinks it means he can do anything, but that's not right. He can't make a four-sided triangle, for example.

I go by the definition of the word in the dictionary.

This is from Merriam-Webster
omnipotent=
1a. having absolute power over all
1b.relatively unlimited in power
1c. having or regarded as having great power or importance
2. having virtually unlimited authority or influence

I would say that the jewish god has absolute power over reality.
If you want to call a 4 sided shape a triangle, you could.
If you want to have a 4 sided shape that also has 3 sides, then you have a logical problem. No one can be omnipotent enough to change the rules of logic.
The 1b makes some sense with respect to logic.

It’s the same with mathematics. No one is omnipotent enough to make the number 5 disappear. Again, this is a matter of logic.

If you want to define God in a certain way and then not believe in what you've imagined, that's your right.

If you think that God could contradict the laws of logic, that's OK with me.

This doesn't mean that Christian theology agrees with you.

[Ferrocyanide]

If you want to define God in a certain way and then not believe in what you've imagined, that's your right.

If you think that God could contradict the laws of logic, that's OK with me.

This doesn't mean that Christian theology agrees with you.

I haven’t changed the definition of the jewish god. You said “ears”

This is what you wrote:
When the Bible says "God hears" something, this doesn't mean that he has ears and hears the sounds in the same way a person does. Naive people may read it that way, but not educated people.

In other words, you have evidence that right now, the jewish god doesn’t have ears and doesn’t hear a person like a human does.
But how could you possibly know that?
THIS IS MY QUESTION TO YOU. Do you have evidence?
My answer is, I do not have evidence.

We are talking about an omnipotent shape shifter.
Perhaps he has generated a human ear right now and is listening like a human right now. Perhaps he has an avatar and he/she/cat/elephant is walking around on planet Earth, right now.
How can I tell a believer that god does not have human ears right now? How can you tell a believer ...

“If you think that God could contradict the laws of logic, that's OK with me.”

==Read again what I wrote.
I think you misunderstood that one.

“This doesn't mean that Christian theology agrees with you.“

==There is no singular christian theology. There are a whole lot of people and christianity means many things to many people.
Yes, I understand that you believe strongly that your version is the correct one but the other guys feel the same way.
The only way to settle the matter is with evidence.

Do you know how scientists settle cases of dispute? They verify each others research, if possible, they redo the same experiment. Sometimes, it takes a long while but they finally come to a conclusion. In some cases, their discovery leads to an invention that we use in our every day lives.

In the case of christianity, what can be done? It is very limited. You can’t do any research other than reading the Bible that was written a long time ago and perhaps read some non canonical work, which again, written a long time ago.
But such writings, were they verified by experts, by peers?

Religion is a bit like history. Mostly, it can’t be verified. The conversations that 2 people had can’t be verified and there aren’t population statistics and birth records for the population.
What can be done is that various science domains can participate to verify history:
Archaeology: check what ancient humans have left, their tools, their cloths, buildings, bones, tatoos.
Language: writing style.
Physics: nuclear physics; radiometric dating
Physics: material physics: I forgot the name but it is for checking if a certain mineral was heat treated.
Physics/Chemistry: material physics: metallurgy. Verify the chemical makeup of an alloy.
Chemistry/Biology: effect of diet on bones. Effect of heat on bones. Effect of diseases on bones.

For religion, none of the supernatural and magical claims can be verified.

[The Grand Nudger]

This doesn't mean that Christian theology agrees with you.

Christian theology agrees and in fact is premised on the claims that god is personal and intervening.  I say no such thing exists.  Is it naive or wrong to address whether or not I believe in personal and intervening gods when asked whether I believe in the christian god?

[Belacqua]

==There is no singular christian theology. There are a whole lot of people and christianity means many things to many people.

Yes, there are a lot of different versions. You are making up a particular version and then arguing against that. If you'd like to read about what educated Christians believe, you could do that, too.

Yes, I understand that you believe strongly that your version is the correct one but the other guys feel the same way.

I'm not a Christian.

[Fake Messiah]

If you'd like to read about what educated Christians believe, you could do that, too.

Ah, what a shameless the No True Scotsman fallacy. Let me guess: the supposed "educated" Christians are only those who fall into Belacqua's narrative.

Obviously, Pope Ratzinger is not one since he rejected the paper on Biblical ahistorical.

Also, not Pope Pius XII sonce he affirmed monogenism in his encyclical Humani Generis.

[Ferrocyanide]

==There is no singular christian theology. There are a whole lot of people and christianity means many things to many people.

Yes, there are a lot of different versions. You are making up a particular version and then arguing against that. If you'd like to read about what educated Christians believe, you could do that, too.

Yes, I understand that you believe strongly that your version is the correct one but the other guys feel the same way.

I'm not a Christian.

Wrong. You simply have problems in understanding what evidence means.
I told you simply and very directly:
YOU DO NOT HAVE ANY EVIDENCE.
You do not have any evidence as to how many ears the jewish god has right now, how those ears function or how the jewish god hears right now.

I also told you that I do not have any evidence.

So, how can you tell a believer in the “god that has ears” that he is wrong?
Neither of you have an advantage. Neither of you have evidence.

I am not arguing against any version at all. Are you dumb?
What I am telling you is that you aren’t wrong if you want to believe that the jewish god doesn’t have human ears.
What I am telling you is that you aren’t wrong if you want to believe that the jewish god does have human ears.

An educated christian can believe what he wants. I don’t have a problem either way.


“I'm not a Christian.”

==You might not be a christian but you certainly aren’t good at understanding english.

[Belacqua]

William Blake wrote four lovely stanzas as a preface to his book-length poem Milton. Set to music by Parry, it is best known today as the hymn "Jerusalem." Here are the first two stanzas:

And did those feet in ancient time
Walk upon Englands mountains green:
And was the holy Lamb of God,
On Englands pleasant pastures seen!

And did the Countenance Divine,
Shine forth upon our clouded hills?
And was Jerusalem builded here,
Among these dark Satanic Mills?

Notice that this is all questions. Typically for Blake, he starts us in medias res and he poses questions for which he gives no immediate answers.

The questions here have to do with the legend, popular in Blake's time, that Jesus had come to England as a child. Jesus's uncle, Joseph of Arimathea, was said to be a traveling tin merchant back when tin was extremely valuable. (No serious historian believes this legend today.) Blake doesn't tell us whether Jesus came to England or not, largely because, like any mystical Christian, he is uninterested in the historical Jesus, when he lived, where he traveled, what he looked like, etc.

Blake does give a reply to the questions, which goes:

Bring me my Bow of burning gold:
Bring me my arrows of desire:
Bring me my Spear: O clouds unfold!
Bring me my Chariot of fire!

I will not cease from Mental Fight,
Nor shall my sword sleep in my hand:
Till we have built Jerusalem,
In Englands green & pleasant Land.

So this is not a straight answer. It requires interpretation, and will frustrate those people who think that we shouldn't have to work for our knowledge. In effect, the question is "Did Jesus visit England?" and the answer Blake gives is: "Let us do our best!"

It will seem odd only if one isn't acquainted with the Christian mystical tradition, of which Blake was a part. Though he seems strange to us today, he had deep roots in very old Neoplatonic Christian teachings.

Two examples of the tradition will help: St. Theresa of Avila wrote that "Christ has no body now but yours." In other words, since his ascension, Christ exists in the world only in the persons of his followers. Christ is in the world exactly to the extent that his followers act Christ-like.

And Joachim of Fiore wrote that the world divides into three ages, that of the Father, of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit. The first age lasted until Jesus was born, the second until he ascended, and the third began at Pentecost when the Spirit descended to his followers. Now spirit sounds like something magic, but it is not so different from what we talk about when we talk about "school spirit," or acting "in the spirit of Martin Luther King." It isn't like a friendly ghost; it is behaving in the way that a group or individual would have us behave. It is "channeling" that person (to use an analogy) in order to rise to his example.

According to Christian theology, God is the Good. The Form of the Good. God takes no actions, but causes all actions in the world due to the fact that people desire the good. God causes action in the world because people act to move toward the good.

So when asked if Jesus is in England, Blake answers that we should do our best to be Jesus-like. Jesus is in England exactly to the extent that English people embody his spirit. For Blake, Jesus is a state of being. The ideal, completely good state toward which people strive. When we lose our neuroses and our self-hood, when we lose our conflictedness and our narrow-mindedness, and we act completely in his spirit, then Jesus is present.

So the answer to the question "does God have ears?" to any Christian in the mystical tradition, would be, "your ears are God's ears to the extent that you are God-like." And this is true of everyone else's ears, too.

[Peebothuhlu]

That was nice.

I'm now glad I gave up caring about this thread days ago.



Not at work.

[Ferrocyanide]

William Blake wrote four lovely stanzas as a preface to his book-length poem Milton. Set to music by Parry, it is best known today as the hymn "Jerusalem." Here are the first two stanzas:

And that still doesn’t change the fact that you, me, William Blake and any other dudes, we don’t have any evidence as to how many ears the jewish god has.

The keyword here is EVIDENCE.
It is a fact that the bible claims that the jewish god is omnipotent and therefore, he is a shapeshifter.

Is there something that I have said that you disagree with?

[vulcanlogician]

I liked Bel's analysis above. I think Ferro and Bel might be talking past each other. Like... WAY past each other.