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(November 15, 2011 at 5:01 am)twocompulsive Wrote:
Logic can not explain metaphysics as
they are polar opposites and completely
so. And as far as doing a bit better than to
just state we are all agnostics. Sorry but no
Or not unless one can do so with a recourse to
belief over reason. As this is the ultimate classic
example of how we some times feel need to tinker
with the actual truth of what is since it causes anxiety
Reality is just not reality if it has to be seen through an
emotional filter. I accept it no matter how uncomfortable
I find it and is a healthy attitude to possess. As world is not
made for your satisfaction or mine but is as it is whatever you
or I think and no matter how safe we feel masked by deception
I cited specific example of some metaphysical abstract concepts that are explained logically, as did you. How then are they polar opposites and metaphysics can't be supported by logic? You're flip flopping a little here. I understand your standpoint is a substance monist are you a strict materialist as well? I think we can agree that reality is reality regardless of who is viewing it. I think we can also agree that perception and bias can't be completely factored out of observable reality. No one here is trying to tinker with the truth of anything. If you truly wish to have a dialogue I'd be happy to come to a workable concensus on whatever certain parameters you feel must be established.
(November 15, 2011 at 8:57 am)Rhythm Wrote:
With regard to the subject in question, there isn't an ounce of agnosticism in my body. Tack, my aggressiveness towards religion could be interpreted as "hateful", but you would have to ignore the fact that my take on christianity is that it is a fundamentally bigoted and ethnocentric worldview, that there is nothing that religious faith offers that cannot be achieved through less disgusting means. Apparently those fruits you spoke of are one of those things. I use my own head as a measure of improvement btw (you don't?). When I feel that I could have handled something better, I try to do so the next time, ad infinitum. I don't think you could demonstrate any other method by which human beings do the whole self-improvement bit. I think your morality is identical to mine in origin. I wouldn't exactly put the central character of the bible in some moral limelight (as a standard to judge relative levels of "morality"), because it would be an embarrassment. Call that hateful if you like, but I'm just trying to stand up to all the nastiness we wrote into our beliefs.
I didn't think there was Rhythm. I was paraphrasing 2compulsives " Therefore then one can reference the fact that every one is ultimately agnostic from the most evangelical fundamentalist to the most strident rationalist and everyone in between." So you hatred is based on every Christian being fundamentally bigoted and having an ethnocentric worldview, or is it just that the establishment of religion has historically been? As far as self-improvement I do agree that our personal morality originates from the same place. I use my own mind as a means of improvement as well. I believe in an objective standard though by which to improve that subjective standard. It all gets filtered though perception and the mind and rehashed as a better morality in the end though. Side note if you were just trying to stand up to all the nastiness we wrote into our beliefs, then you wouldn't need to fight back, especially since you don't share those beliefs. If you were just standing for your beliefs, then you wouldn't need to push them or be hateful to another groups beliefs. You wouldn't have to fight against those people just express yourself and brush the rest off. However, I presume since you feel religion is also an injustice, that this plays a part in the fighting against rather than standing up for.
@AtheistAaron- My frustration usually shuts down the show when I hear, "...our 5 senses..." . The video had some good points and I bet some Christians do fear rejection from God or have no solid foundation for their belief so they do react that way. I was merely pointing out that it's a generalization and just as easily reversed for atheists that exhibit those reactions. Albeit, even factoring in numbers, I would guess that atheists have a far smaller potion of anti theists than Christians that don't act Christian. It would be interesting to see the numbers on polls like that though
@And no Min the theists, want silly standards like unbiased material proof for the immaterial, thrown out as silliness. Maybe after that gets reevaluated, they might be open to an actual experience of their own to test.
"There ought to be a term that would designate those who actually follow the teachings of Jesus, since the word 'Christian' has been largely divorced from those teachings, and so polluted by fundamentalists that it has come to connote their polar opposite: intolerance, vindictive hatred, and bigotry." -- Philip Stater, Huffington Post
always working on cleaning my windows- me regarding Johari
(November 18, 2011 at 5:20 am)tackattack Wrote: @AtheistAaron- My frustration usually shuts down the show when I hear, "...our 5 senses..." . The video had some good points and I bet some Christians do fear rejection from God or have no solid foundation for their belief so they do react that way. I was merely pointing out that it's a generalization and just as easily reversed for atheists that exhibit those reactions. Albeit, even factoring in numbers, I would guess that atheists have a far smaller potion of anti theists than Christians that don't act Christian. It would be interesting to see the numbers on polls like that though
You said the video generalizes and can easily be flipped around. In fact, I think it makes more sense the way you put it: that atheists get frustrated because they feel rejected by God. However, I disagree with the premise that either side's frustration comes from rejection. No, atheists don't feel rejected by God. But I don't think the video makes any sense either. Religious people get frustrated because they take any criticisms of their belief as a personal attack (which they aren't) not because of a feeling of rejection. The video overcomplicates the issue.
November 18, 2011 at 3:32 pm (This post was last modified: November 18, 2011 at 3:36 pm by The Grand Nudger.)
No, it starts with judeo-christianity being a fundamentally bigoted and ethnocentric religion. A fanciful tale of a vengeful god that missed his ethics course. Christian people, like all people, run the full spectrum of behaviour. Saints to sinners. It's not you, it's your religion, lol. Injustice would be one word. Pervasive another. I could think of plenty of words. In fact the only way one can escape these little wonderings is by reference to his "mysterious ways". See, as an outsider I'm on the fence about your god. The reformed folks have a strong argument for a douchebag god. He's not worthy of worship real or made up. On the other hand, there are the fluffy types who propose a sort of bumbling, mildly inept god. It's human, helps you to feel close, but again, not worth worship. Then, as you've mentioned, there are these things the religious do, and say.....
It's a giant shit sandwich, can you blame me for not wanting a bite?
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
(November 18, 2011 at 2:00 pm)AthiestAtheist Wrote:
(November 18, 2011 at 5:20 am)tackattack Wrote: @AtheistAaron- My frustration usually shuts down the show when I hear, "...our 5 senses..." . The video had some good points and I bet some Christians do fear rejection from God or have no solid foundation for their belief so they do react that way. I was merely pointing out that it's a generalization and just as easily reversed for atheists that exhibit those reactions. Albeit, even factoring in numbers, I would guess that atheists have a far smaller potion of anti theists than Christians that don't act Christian. It would be interesting to see the numbers on polls like that though
You said the video generalizes and can easily be flipped around. In fact, I think it makes more sense the way you put it: that atheists get frustrated because they feel rejected by God. However, I disagree with the premise that either side's frustration comes from rejection. No, atheists don't feel rejected by God. But I don't think the video makes any sense either. Religious people get frustrated because they take any criticisms of their belief as a personal attack (which they aren't) not because of a feeling of rejection. The video overcomplicates the issue.
Perhaps it could have been over complicating the issues. Often enough from a theist perspective an attack on our beliefs starts with "those stupid/irrational/ignorant/deluded/crazy Christians..." So hopefully you can see where it would be taken as a personal attack. I also agree that by definition an atheist has no belief in god(s) therefore there is no sense of rejection. Some people might arrive at that belief though, through feelings of rejection from religious society, or for self preservation instances, or rejection irrational dogma or illogical conclusions as well.
(November 18, 2011 at 3:32 pm)Rhythm Wrote:
No, it starts with judeo-christianity being a fundamentally bigoted and ethnocentric religion. A fanciful tale of a vengeful god that missed his ethics course. Christian people, like all people, run the full spectrum of behaviour. Saints to sinners. It's not you, it's your religion, lol. Injustice would be one word. Pervasive another. I could think of plenty of words. In fact the only way one can escape these little wonderings is by reference to his "mysterious ways". See, as an outsider I'm on the fence about your god. The reformed folks have a strong argument for a douchebag god. He's not worthy of worship real or made up. On the other hand, there are the fluffy types who propose a sort of bumbling, mildly inept god. It's human, helps you to feel close, but again, not worth worship. Then, as you've mentioned, there are these things the religious do, and say.....
It's a giant shit sandwich, can you blame me for not wanting a bite?
I prefer to base my beliefs on experience, observation and rational thought, not whether I agree with someone else or like what they're peddling. Although for things outside of my controllable reality, logically sound is at least a good start It is a bit of a cluster, and I don't blame anyone for automatically rejecting the trappings.
"There ought to be a term that would designate those who actually follow the teachings of Jesus, since the word 'Christian' has been largely divorced from those teachings, and so polluted by fundamentalists that it has come to connote their polar opposite: intolerance, vindictive hatred, and bigotry." -- Philip Stater, Huffington Post
always working on cleaning my windows- me regarding Johari
November 19, 2011 at 10:37 am (This post was last modified: November 19, 2011 at 10:40 am by Ziploc Surprise.)
(November 18, 2011 at 2:00 pm)AthiestAtheist Wrote:
(November 18, 2011 at 5:20 am)tackattack Wrote: @AtheistAaron- My frustration usually shuts down the show when I hear, "...our 5 senses..." . The video had some good points and I bet some Christians do fear rejection from God or have no solid foundation for their belief so they do react that way. I was merely pointing out that it's a generalization and just as easily reversed for atheists that exhibit those reactions. Albeit, even factoring in numbers, I would guess that atheists have a far smaller potion of anti theists than Christians that don't act Christian. It would be interesting to see the numbers on polls like that though
You said the video generalizes and can easily be flipped around. In fact, I think it makes more sense the way you put it: that atheists get frustrated because they feel rejected by God. However, I disagree with the premise that either side's frustration comes from rejection. No, atheists don't feel rejected by God. But I don't think the video makes any sense either. Religious people get frustrated because they take any criticisms of their belief as a personal attack (which they aren't) not because of a feeling of rejection. The video overcomplicates the issue.
If this matters, the video is valid Psychology. I have a bs degree in Psychology. In defense of the video maker it is difficult to explain the psychological concept in a short period of time.
(November 18, 2011 at 3:32 pm)Rhythm Wrote: A fanciful tale of a vengeful god that missed his ethics course.
Well put Rhythm. I think I might steal this quote from you and use it elsewhere.
I have studied the Bible and the theology behind Christianity for many years. I have been to many churches. I have walked the depth and the breadth of the religion and, as a result of this, I have a lot of bullshit to scrape off the bottom of my shoes. ~Ziploc Surprise
November 19, 2011 at 10:48 am (This post was last modified: November 19, 2011 at 11:18 am by ElDinero.)
(November 18, 2011 at 9:56 pm)tackattack Wrote: I prefer to base my beliefs on experience, observation and rational thought, not whether I agree with someone else or like what they're peddling.
It's very telling that you missed 'evidence' out of your list of things to look for. I suppose observation qualifies, which begs the question of what it is you have observed?
Your personal experience is worth fuck all, as you should well know. How do you know you are not suffering from a delusion?
@El Dinero, I don't we could very well all be in the matrix. That's not a useful or testable premise so while it's possible, I consider it a miniscule one. Evidence presented is experienced and observed, therefore no I did not exclude evidence. I apologize if you were looking for it to be specifically list, but I felt the terms I used better encompassed the entirety of my views on reality. I just try and not limit my view to strict materialism. If I did have that view evidence probably would have been more appropriate.
@Ziploc- that validity or facts of the video really weren't my point. It was the fact it was used to substantiate a generalization that is just as true from a different perspective of theological belief.
"There ought to be a term that would designate those who actually follow the teachings of Jesus, since the word 'Christian' has been largely divorced from those teachings, and so polluted by fundamentalists that it has come to connote their polar opposite: intolerance, vindictive hatred, and bigotry." -- Philip Stater, Huffington Post
always working on cleaning my windows- me regarding Johari
(November 19, 2011 at 12:21 pm)tackattack Wrote: @El Dinero, I don't we could very well all be in the matrix. That's not a useful or testable premise so while it's possible, I consider it a miniscule one. Evidence presented is experienced and observed, therefore no I did not exclude evidence. I apologize if you were looking for it to be specifically list, but I felt the terms I used better encompassed the entirety of my views on reality. I just try and not limit my view to strict materialism. If I did have that view evidence probably would have been more appropriate.
I wouldn't say I'm a strict materialist either. But we have observed the material world, we know it exists.
What of the immaterial world have you experienced and observed?
It is a bit of a cluster, and I don't blame anyone for automatically rejecting the trappings.
