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RE: My Almighty VS your argument against it
May 4, 2022 at 10:30 am
(This post was last modified: May 4, 2022 at 10:30 am by Alan V.)
(May 4, 2022 at 10:12 am)Ahriman Wrote: (May 3, 2022 at 11:19 pm)Fake Messiah Wrote: I don't get how does God give someone meaning in life? Is it because they think they would kill themselves if they didn't believe that suicide is a sin? Or that the thought that God loves them gives them meaning in life? - but how? And if so, why does God have to love them to have meaning in life but love from another human(s) doesn't give them meaning in life? Well that's an easy question to answer.......it's because God's love is, in this case, seen as being more valuable than the love offered by other humans. Can't say I blame anyone for thinking that.
If assumed meaning isn't at least a reasonable interpretation of the facts, it's not really meaning, is it? It's delusion.
If I won a million dollars in a lottery, that would be more valuable to me than my actual bank account. However, I doubt very much that will really happen, I shouldn't plan on it, and I definitely shouldn't avoid getting a job because of it.
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RE: My Almighty VS your argument against it
May 4, 2022 at 10:33 am
(This post was last modified: May 4, 2022 at 10:36 am by The Grand Nudger.)
(May 4, 2022 at 10:12 am)Ahriman Wrote: (May 3, 2022 at 11:19 pm)Fake Messiah Wrote: I don't get how does God give someone meaning in life? Is it because they think they would kill themselves if they didn't believe that suicide is a sin? Or that the thought that God loves them gives them meaning in life? - but how? And if so, why does God have to love them to have meaning in life but love from another human(s) doesn't give them meaning in life? Well that's an easy question to answer.......it's because God's love is, in this case, seen as being more valuable than the love offered by other humans. Can't say I blame anyone for thinking that.
Cool sidebar, but you're both missing the thrust of the op imo. The short comment about meaning was a prelude to the notion that the god-making attribute is meaning-making.
OP concludes that if an alien being did it, he's a deist. Which is actually spot on. The meaning maker is not personal.
OP concludes that if people did it, he's a polytheist. Spot on again, as the meaning makers are both personal and numerous.
Meaning, at least in that statement, expressed as victory and liberation from evil and it's consequences.
-but I could, ofc, have gotten that totally wrong.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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RE: My Almighty VS your argument against it
May 4, 2022 at 10:40 am
(May 4, 2022 at 10:33 am)The Grand Nudger Wrote: (May 4, 2022 at 10:12 am)Ahriman Wrote: Well that's an easy question to answer.......it's because God's love is, in this case, seen as being more valuable than the love offered by other humans. Can't say I blame anyone for thinking that.
Cool sidebar, but you're both missing the thrust of the op imo. The short comment about meaning was a prelude to the notion that the god-making attribute is meaning-making.
OP concludes that if an alien being did it, he's a deist. Which is actually spot on. The meaning maker is not personal.
OP concludes that if people did it, he's a polytheist. Spot on again, as the meaning makers are both personal and numerous.
Meaning, at least in that statement, expressed as victory and liberation from evil and it's consequences.
-but I could, ofc, have gotten that totally wrong. Yeah that won't happen for anyone, with or without God. Things are meant to suck, in this realm.
"Imagination, life is your creation"
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RE: My Almighty VS your argument against it
May 4, 2022 at 10:52 am
For you, suck-making is god-making. Whatever it is that makes things suck, is your god.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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RE: My Almighty VS your argument against it
May 4, 2022 at 11:24 am
(May 4, 2022 at 10:52 am)The Grand Nudger Wrote: For you, suck-making is god-making. Whatever it is that makes things suck, is your god. Not necessarily. That's very presumptuous of you.
"Imagination, life is your creation"
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RE: My Almighty VS your argument against it
May 4, 2022 at 12:09 pm
You must mean it's presumptuous of you - and I agree. We are, after all, talking about what you say the meaning of life is.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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RE: My Almighty VS your argument against it
May 4, 2022 at 12:20 pm
(May 4, 2022 at 12:09 pm)The Grand Nudger Wrote: You must mean it's presumptuous of you - and I agree. We are, after all, talking about what you say the meaning of life is. What's so hard to understand about someone placing more meaning/value in GOD than in some puny little human?
"Imagination, life is your creation"
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RE: My Almighty VS your argument against it
May 4, 2022 at 12:28 pm
You can invest whatever you want with whatever value you want. You can decide which of the literally endless meanings you value the most. The op is prepared to call humans, or an alien, a god - there's a stated transactional requirement. For you, sucking is of the highest value - and you also perceive it in transactional terms.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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RE: My Almighty VS your argument against it
May 4, 2022 at 1:03 pm
@ Won2blv
Are you gonna respond to the things folks have said in your thread? Angrboda asked for some clarity on exactly what you mean, and that's where I'm at too.
Like could you give us a thesis statement, or a one-sentence summary of the overall point you are trying to make, please?
As far as I'm concerned, meaningfulness is an important issue to discuss. It's one of those things that's important but tricky. Some atheists make it sound like you can just pull any meaning for life out of your ass and it'll do just fine. I disagree with this. If a person is looking for meaning, it means they are already dissatisfied with "off the shelf" meanings that do the trick for many others.
One of the difficult parts of life is that it involves a ton of meaningless suffering. It's chalk full of it. We often like to point the finger at villains or greater society or some other "thing" that causes suffering for its own sinister (or apathetic) purposes. But the fact is, most of our suffering is completely meaningless. Just an arbitrary life condition.
That's why religious meaning resonates with people. It transcends life's innate "suffering for no reason." Even atheists like Nietzsche noted that "He who has a 'why' can endure almost any 'how.'"
Of course there are a multitude of ways to address meaninglessness. Religion being only one. Camus noted a few others: suicide and embracing the absurd among them.
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RE: My Almighty VS your argument against it
May 4, 2022 at 1:13 pm
(This post was last modified: May 4, 2022 at 1:13 pm by Alan V.)
(May 4, 2022 at 1:03 pm)vulcanlogician Wrote: @Won2blv
Are you gonna respond to the things folks have said in your thread? Angrboda asked for some clarity on exactly what you mean, and that's where I'm at too.
Like could you give us a thesis statement, or a one-sentence summary of the overall point you are trying to make, please?
As usual, atheists are likely so far ahead of the OP in thinking about such issues that Won2blv is stumped about what to say next.
... that is, if he wasn't just pulling our leg to begin with.
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