Posts: 67193
Threads: 140
Joined: June 28, 2011
Reputation:
162
RE: Proxy war in Ukraine?
November 7, 2022 at 3:37 pm
(This post was last modified: November 7, 2022 at 3:39 pm by The Grand Nudger.)
That's the rub. The only arguments that ever actually end in a valid conclusion of "lets let vlad the impotent do what he wants" are the ones that ignore the cost, both in usd, and in ukranian lives. For starters. We could add other lives into the mix once they tidy up with the child snatching in nothereistan...
So, at this point, you gotta ask, even if it were a proxy war...which it manifestly is not...would that be a bad thing...?
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
Posts: 7259
Threads: 506
Joined: December 12, 2015
Reputation:
22
RE: Proxy war in Ukraine?
November 7, 2022 at 3:41 pm
(November 7, 2022 at 3:18 pm)BrianSoddingBoru4 Wrote: (November 7, 2022 at 2:37 pm)Jehanne Wrote: The United States cannot be a World Police force; we have our own problems. Do not let the war in Ukraine turn into a fiscal black hole, or, worse, the detonator for WW III.
$18 billion out of a defense budget of nearly $2 trillion is hardly the harbinger of a ‘fiscal black hole’.
Boru
We talked about this in the other thread. It's more than that, much more.
Posts: 67193
Threads: 140
Joined: June 28, 2011
Reputation:
162
RE: Proxy war in Ukraine?
November 7, 2022 at 3:45 pm
(This post was last modified: November 7, 2022 at 3:47 pm by The Grand Nudger.)
It would have to be a whole hell of a lot more..wouldn't it..and even then, so what if it were? You just told us you were concerned about the costs, the roi. Well, you spend money to make money, right? We're getting a hell of alot for any dollar spent, proxy war style, whatever you think that amount may be. Seems like fantastic business, if that's what we're concerned with.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
Posts: 11053
Threads: 29
Joined: December 8, 2019
Reputation:
14
RE: Proxy war in Ukraine?
November 7, 2022 at 3:45 pm
Quote:We talked about this in the other thread. It's more than that, much more.
We did and you didn't make a convincing case and even if you had it doesn't change the fact Ukraine will not be a serious economic issue for the US.
"Change was inevitable"
Nemo sicut deus debet esse!
“No matter what men think, abortion is a fact of life. Women have always had them; they always have and they always will. Are they going to have good ones or bad ones? Will the good ones be reserved for the rich, while the poor women go to quacks?”
–SHIRLEY CHISHOLM
Posts: 11053
Threads: 29
Joined: December 8, 2019
Reputation:
14
RE: Proxy war in Ukraine?
November 7, 2022 at 3:47 pm
(November 7, 2022 at 3:37 pm)The Grand Nudger Wrote: That's the rub. The only arguments that ever actually end in a valid conclusion of "lets let vlad the impotent do what he wants" are the ones that ignore the cost, both in usd, and in ukranian lives. For starters. We could add other lives into the mix once they tidy up with the child snatching in nothereistan...
So, at this point, you gotta ask, even if it were a proxy war...which it manifestly is not...would that be a bad thing...? Considering the Alternative the answer is no it would not be.
"Change was inevitable"
Nemo sicut deus debet esse!
“No matter what men think, abortion is a fact of life. Women have always had them; they always have and they always will. Are they going to have good ones or bad ones? Will the good ones be reserved for the rich, while the poor women go to quacks?”
–SHIRLEY CHISHOLM
Posts: 7259
Threads: 506
Joined: December 12, 2015
Reputation:
22
RE: Proxy war in Ukraine?
November 7, 2022 at 4:04 pm
(This post was last modified: November 7, 2022 at 4:04 pm by Jehanne.)
(November 7, 2022 at 3:45 pm)The Grand Nudger Wrote: It would have to be a whole hell of a lot more..wouldn't it..and even then, so what if it were? You just told us you were concerned about the costs, the roi. Well, you spend money to make money, right? We're getting a hell of alot for any dollar spent, proxy war style, whatever you think that amount may be. Seems like fantastic business, if that's what we're concerned with.
What? Funding a losing war and increasing human suffering while risking a global thermonuclear war?? Even assuming $18 billion for the military industrial complex plus another $30 billion or so for non-military sectors, whose counting? Sounds like a pyramid scheme to me! And, so, yes, defense contractors stand to make a LOT of money!
In the end, Ukraine will lose, badly and will be completely dominated by Russia at the cost of many hundreds of thousands of human lives. Money well spent? Of course!
Posts: 67193
Threads: 140
Joined: June 28, 2011
Reputation:
162
RE: Proxy war in Ukraine?
November 7, 2022 at 4:07 pm
(This post was last modified: November 7, 2022 at 4:15 pm by The Grand Nudger.)
Proxy war, remember? It doesn't matter if ukraine loses, or how many ukranians die - only if we benefit in the exchange, which we do - and alot.
The trouble is that you can't pick a lane. When confronted with the humanitarian good of us support in this conflict, it's bad for business. When confronted with the actual return on this business, it's a humanitarian disaster. The obvious staring you right in the face, either way. That this is a humanitarian disaster that the us can help with, and benefit greatly from helping with, at the same time. Why did you think we waded in at the fourth quarter? There's no win here for russia, just some hopeful version of a less humiliating defeat. There's no loss here for the us, just the containment of two, count em two, geopolitical rivals..at a fraction of the cost we spend for those same aims.
Now, obviously, I think we find ourselves here because far too much of the world, russia included, apparently, has been huffing fsb paint. Thing is, that fsb paint isn't supposed to make sense, which is why it doesn't. It's supposed to be nonsense, because it supports a post truth "depoliticized" worldview with intersectionality far beyond just putin and his merry band of looters in russia, lol.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
Posts: 46122
Threads: 538
Joined: July 24, 2013
Reputation:
109
RE: Proxy war in Ukraine?
November 7, 2022 at 4:20 pm
(November 7, 2022 at 3:41 pm)Jehanne Wrote: (November 7, 2022 at 3:18 pm)BrianSoddingBoru4 Wrote: $18 billion out of a defense budget of nearly $2 trillion is hardly the harbinger of a ‘fiscal black hole’.
Boru
We talked about this in the other thread. It's more than that, much more.
Source? (Actual source, not just a link to the other thread, please.)
Boru
‘I can’t be having with this.’ - Esmeralda Weatherwax
Posts: 11053
Threads: 29
Joined: December 8, 2019
Reputation:
14
RE: Proxy war in Ukraine?
November 7, 2022 at 4:20 pm
(This post was last modified: November 7, 2022 at 4:26 pm by The Architect Of Fate.)
Quote:What? Funding a losing war and increasing human suffering while risking a global thermonuclear war?? Even assuming $18 billion for the military industrial complex plus another $30 billion or so for non-military sectors, whose counting? Sounds like a pyramid scheme to me! And, so, yes, defense contractors stand to make a LOT of money!
In the end, Ukraine will lose, badly and will be completely dominated by Russia at the cost of many hundreds of thousands of human lives. Money well spent? Of course!
1. It's not a losing war
2. Those people will already suffer under Russian domination at least with the war they have a good chance of remaining free.
3. There won't any thermonuclear war
4. Your point about money has already been rendered moot really.
5. Ukraine isn't going to lose period and Russia will dominate nothing and the cost will be more than worth it on both counts. You can't put a price on freedom.
"Change was inevitable"
Nemo sicut deus debet esse!
“No matter what men think, abortion is a fact of life. Women have always had them; they always have and they always will. Are they going to have good ones or bad ones? Will the good ones be reserved for the rich, while the poor women go to quacks?”
–SHIRLEY CHISHOLM
Posts: 67193
Threads: 140
Joined: June 28, 2011
Reputation:
162
RE: Proxy war in Ukraine?
November 7, 2022 at 4:32 pm
Or, you can, and were buying it cheap, for someone other than ourselves.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
|