A thing about religious (and other) people and the illusion of free will

[Ahriman]

Here's a hypothetical.  Let's suppose a man is arrested and convicted because he's a serial arsonist.  When he was free, he couldn't afford health insurance, but now that he's in prison, he has access to good medical services.  They discover that he had a brain tumor, and that but for that tumor, he wouldn't have started those fires.  Unfortunately, the damage is done, and though they now know the cause, they can't reverse the damage -- the damage which is causing him to light fires.  So he was a serial arsonist through no fault of his own, yet now he is an arsonist likely to re-offend regardless.  Do you make him serve out his sentence?  Do you try to rehabilitate him, only to fail because no amount of therapy will fix his brain?  Or do you lock him up and throw away the key because you know that he is a danger to his community, even though he made no choice that resulted in his becoming one?

How would they ever be able to determine that it was actually the brain tumor the guy had that caused him to set stuff on fire?

[Angrboda]

Here's a hypothetical.  Let's suppose a man is arrested and convicted because he's a serial arsonist.  When he was free, he couldn't afford health insurance, but now that he's in prison, he has access to good medical services.  They discover that he had a brain tumor, and that but for that tumor, he wouldn't have started those fires.  Unfortunately, the damage is done, and though they now know the cause, they can't reverse the damage -- the damage which is causing him to light fires.  So he was a serial arsonist through no fault of his own, yet now he is an arsonist likely to re-offend regardless.  Do you make him serve out his sentence?  Do you try to rehabilitate him, only to fail because no amount of therapy will fix his brain?  Or do you lock him up and throw away the key because you know that he is a danger to his community, even though he made no choice that resulted in his becoming one?

How would they ever be able to determine that it was actually the brain tumor the guy had that caused him to set stuff on fire?

Future science. It's a hypothetical. It's just assumed.

[Ahriman]

How would they ever be able to determine that it was actually the brain tumor the guy had that caused him to set stuff on fire?

Future science.  It's a hypothetical.  It's just assumed.

Flimsy assumption, but okay.

[Gawdzilla Sama]

Does determinism edge into the deity zone?

[Thumpalumpacus]

We weren't talking talking about airplanes and beehives. Still, I must have misspoken. That said, I probably should not have used the word man-made. I did not, however, say all man-made things are not real.

You wrote:

Still, what can exist as a concept, does not necessarily translate into something physical, or even something existent, for that matter. There are people like most of us here who believe free will does not really exist. I was saying that free will exists as a concept only, not something that exists as part of the human brain and biology, let alone the human mind.

And:

It would probably be that free will was a mad made concept, in other words, artificial, not occurring in nature. So, with that, free will can't possibly be something that is actually real.

The first sentence asserts that what is man-made does not occur in nature. Even if we limit this claim of yours to the conceptual, the fact of the matter is that human concepts do occur in nature, because human thought occurs in the brain, and is the direct result of material interactions occurring inside neurons which are, again, material. It follows that your claim quoted above is incorrect.

Finally, by your logic, if you aver that free will cannot be real because it is a human conception, such logic would also result in determinism not being real, because it too is a human conception.

Be aware that I am not making any claim at all vis free will or determinism; I'm agnostic on the issue. I'm just pointing out an incoherent argument.

[The Grand Nudger]

Seems like we'd keep a person confined if whatever was causing them to behave whatever way couldn't be resolved any other way. That or kill them..historically.

[ShinyCrystals]

We weren't talking talking about airplanes and beehives. Still, I must have misspoken. That said, I probably should not have used the word man-made. I did not, however, say all man-made things are not real.

You wrote:

Still, what can exist as a concept, does not necessarily translate into something physical, or even something existent, for that matter. There are people like most of us here who believe free will does not really exist. I was saying that free will exists as a concept only, not something that exists as part of the human brain and biology, let alone the human mind.

And:

It would probably be that free will was a mad made concept, in other words, artificial, not occurring in nature. So, with that, free will can't possibly be something that is actually real.

The first sentence asserts that what is man-made does not occur in nature. Even if we limit this claim of yours to the conceptual, the fact of the matter is that human concepts do occur in nature, because human thought occurs in the brain, and is the direct result of material interactions occurring inside neurons which are, again, material. It follows that your claim quoted above is incorrect.

Finally, by your logic, if you aver that free will cannot be real because it is a human conception, such logic would also result in determinism not being real, because it too is a human conception.

Be aware that I am not making any claim at all vis free will or determinism; I'm agnostic on the issue. I'm just pointing out an incoherent argument.

Look, no need to get worked up about this. It was a mistake, okay? No need to magnify this at all. Besides, I was just talking about free will, in the wrong way. Seems like I missed something, but as this was said merely in the wrong terms, I do not think this is worth arguing about. I mean, it happens.

I know what I was talking about, I just did not use the right words. I did not mean to say it so that every other concept did not exist.

[Thumpalumpacus]

Look, no need to get worked up about this. It was a mistake, okay? No need to magnify this at all. Besides, I was just talking about free will, in the wrong way. Seems like I missed something, but as this was said merely in the wrong terms, I do not think this is worth arguing about. I mean, it happens.

I know what I was talking about, I just did not use the right words. I did not mean to say it so that every other concept did not exist.

I'm not "worked up". I'm pointing out that human concepts are just as real -- material -- as anything else, so the conclusion that they don't exist in nature is fundamentally flawed.

I'm not upset. I like accurate language, especially in a format where it is the only means of communicating. I will make it quite clear when I'm pissed; now isn't one of those times.

[Ahriman]

Look, no need to get worked up about this. It was a mistake, okay? No need to magnify this at all. Besides, I was just talking about free will, in the wrong way. Seems like I missed something, but as this was said merely in the wrong terms, I do not think this is worth arguing about. I mean, it happens.

I know what I was talking about, I just did not use the right words. I did not mean to say it so that every other concept did not exist.

I'm not "worked up". I'm pointing out that human concepts are just as real -- material -- as anything else, so  the conclusion that they don't exist in nature is fundamentally flawed.

I'm not upset. I like accurate language, especially in a format where it is the only means of communicating. I will make it quite clear when I'm pissed; now isn't one of those times.

You mean like God?

[The Grand Nudger]

They're easy terms and concepts to get sideways with, I think. If someone asked me which elephant were real, the one in the zoo or the one in my mind - I'd quickly say the one in the zoo. Ran into this with my kids recently. They'd found a mobile game that's basically just sailing around a little lake in a dinghy. They love it - all four of them, and they don't argue when they play together. A rarity. So I get a bright idea. Why don't we go rent some boats and sail around the lake. You'd think I had a penis growing out of my forehead. "Why?"-because it's real....?

We did not go sailing.