Russia and Ukraine

[Leonardo17]

US officials are now telling Ukraine they ought to negotiate with the Russians, according to the Washington Post.

If this is true, it's a major change, and possibly a good one.

On the other hand, it could be a PR move to pretend that US/NATO/Ukraine are the ones open to talks, simply in order to make Russia look bad.

Or -- Russia was never and is not interested in negotiating in good faith:

Radio Free Europe/Radio Liberty's (RFE/RL) Sistema project released an investigation on November 4 detailing Russia's initial 2022 demands for Ukraine's total capitulation, further supporting ISW's long-standing assessment that Russia has never been willing to engage in good-faith negotiations with Ukraine on any terms but its own.[10] RFE/RL reported on November 4 that it obtained a draft of the treaty that Russia offered to Ukraine on March 7, 2022, entitled "Treaty on the Settlement of the Situation in Ukraine and the Neutrality of Ukraine." The draft document includes seven provisions, all of which amount to Ukraine's complete surrender and disarmament and the abandonment of its sovereignty, lands, and people. The document calls for Ukraine to reduce its army from nearly 197,000 personnel to 50,000 personnel, which RFE/RL notes would have meant that the Ukrainian army would be smaller than the Belarusian army, despite the fact that the Belarusian population in 2022 was one-fifth of the Ukrainian population. The document also states that Ukraine would not be able to develop, produce, buy, or deploy missile systems with a range of more than 250 kilometers; that Ukraine would have to recognize occupied Donetsk and Luhansk oblasts as independent Donetsk and Luhansk People's Republics (DNR and LNR) and cede parts of Donetsk and Luhansk oblasts that Ukraine still controlled in March 2022; that Ukraine would have to commit to the financial costs of rebuilding parts of the Donbas that Russia had destroyed following its initial 2014 invasion; that Ukraine and the international community would lift all sanctions and cancel all lawsuits that had been levied against Russian since 2014; that Ukraine would grant the Russian language the status of a "state language" and restore all property rights of the Kremlin-controlled Ukrainian Orthodox Church Moscow Patriarchate; and that Ukraine would re-legalize Soviet and communist symbols.[11] In essence, Moscow was asking Ukraine to willingly give up its military, its offensive and defensive capabilities, its land, a significant portion of its population and economic capacity, and cease protecting its language, history, and culture.

The Kremlin has been incessant in its claims that it set out to negotiate in March 2022 (after illegally invading Ukraine) but that it was Ukraine and the collective West that destroyed the prospect of negotiations.[12] The RFE/RL investigation supports ISW's long-standing assessment that this was never the case, however, and that Russia never intended to negotiate in good faith with Ukraine.[13] Russia presented outrageous demands calling for Ukraine to surrender its security and sovereignty, knowing that Ukraine would (rightly) refuse to do so, and then blamed Ukraine for the supposed "failure" of negotiations. ISW continues to assess that Russia has constructed a narrative around the concept of negotiations that it is using in an effort to encourage the West to make concessions on Ukrainian sovereignty and territorial integrity, and the RFE/RL investigation emphasizes that Russia's "diplomatic" engagements with Ukraine and the West since the full-scale invasion have always been oriented around this destructive objective.[14]

https://www.understandingwar.org/backgro...ct-updates

No, it’s not that bad. With the election of Donald Trump, Putin has suddenly become less psychotic. He only wants Ukraine to not join NATO (I don’t know about the EU) and he want to keep the territories he already took.
 
https://www.yahoo.com/news/putin-says-uk...09553.html

[Belacqua]

No, it’s not that bad. With the election of Donald Trump, Putin has suddenly become less psychotic. He only wants Ukraine to not join NATO (I don’t know about the EU) and he want to keep the territories he already took.
 
https://www.yahoo.com/news/putin-says-uk...09553.html

The goals Putin lists in that article are the same ones he's been after all along.

An American general attributed other goals to him which the media obediently repeated, but Putin himself hasn't changed. No NATO, demilitarization, self-determination for the ethnically Russian areas. 

Most likely it's clear to the Pentagon now that the war has run its course. The adventure in Kursk failed. Former President Zelensky recently demanded Tomahawk missiles from America but was humiliated when the Pentagon revealed his request and the fact that they wouldn't fulfill it. Zelensky's term as president has expired and he has no legitimate constitutional authority any more, and refuses to call for elections or allow opposition parties. (It will be interesting to see what happens to him. He could retire to one of the many luxury properties his wife has been purchasing around the world. Or his own people might Mussolini him. We know what happens to the leaders of America's proxy wars once America is done with them. See: Saddam Hussein.)

America has long wanted to break up Russia so they could control its natural resources. Putin made sure this won't happen, but American corporations now control all the resources in the 80% of Ukraine that's still intact. The war has also increased the cost of energy in Europe so much that Germany's deindustrialization is greatly encouraged. (Germany still survives on Russian oil, but has to buy it through an Indian middleman, which increases the cost.) Other countries have quietly begun dealing with Russia again -- even Japan, usually America's most obedient vassal, now buys Russian oil and gas directly. 

The International Monetary Fund has announced this year that Russia's economy is doing fine. Measured as purchasing parity power, Russia has surpassed Japan to become the world's 4th largest economy. It has also been upgraded from a middle-income country to a high-income country. 

A great deal of fantasy has been put out there about what's happening. But the fact is that Ukraine has lost big time. And the clear message to other countries is that allying yourself with the US doesn't help any more. So this little adventure, apart from causing hundreds of thousands of unnecessary deaths, in the end weakens America's position in the world.

[The Valkyrie]

No, it’s not that bad. With the election of Donald Trump, Putin has suddenly become less psychotic. He only wants Ukraine to not join NATO (I don’t know about the EU) and he want to keep the territories he already took.
 
https://www.yahoo.com/news/putin-says-uk...09553.html

The goals Putin lists in that article are the same ones he's been after all along.

An American general attributed other goals to him which the media obediently repeated, but Putin himself hasn't changed. No NATO, demilitarization, self-determination for the ethnically Russian areas. 

Most likely it's clear to the Pentagon now that the war has run its course. The adventure in Kursk failed. Former President Zelensky recently demanded Tomahawk missiles from America but was humiliated when the Pentagon revealed his request and the fact that they wouldn't fulfill it. Zelensky's term as president has expired and he has no legitimate constitutional authority any more, and refuses to call for elections or allow opposition parties. (It will be interesting to see what happens to him. He could retire to one of the many luxury properties his wife has been purchasing around the world. Or his own people might Mussolini him. We know what happens to the leaders of America's proxy wars once America is done with them. See: Saddam Hussein.)

America has long wanted to break up Russia so they could control its natural resources. Putin made sure this won't happen, but American corporations now control all the resources in the 80% of Ukraine that's still intact. The war has also increased the cost of energy in Europe so much that Germany's deindustrialization is greatly encouraged. (Germany still survives on Russian oil, but has to buy it through an Indian middleman, which increases the cost.) Other countries have quietly begun dealing with Russia again -- even Japan, usually America's most obedient vassal, now buys Russian oil and gas directly. 

The International Monetary Fund has announced this year that Russia's economy is doing fine. Measured as purchasing parity power, Russia has surpassed Japan to become the world's 4th largest economy. It has also been upgraded from a middle-income country to a high-income country. 

A great deal of fantasy has been put out there about what's happening. But the fact is that Ukraine has lost big time. And the clear message to other countries is that allying yourself with the US doesn't help any more. So this little adventure, apart from causing hundreds of thousands of unnecessary deaths, in the end weakens America's position in the world.

Well, aren't you a good little Putin propagandist?

[Deesse23]

Russia: Invades Ukraine and occupied important natural resources
Bel: America has long wanted to break up Russia so they could control its natural resources.

[Thumpalumpacus]

Or -- Russia was never and is not interested in negotiating in good faith:


https://www.understandingwar.org/backgro...ct-updates

No, it’s not that bad. With the election of Donald Trump, Putin has suddenly become less psychotic. He only wants Ukraine to not join NATO (I don’t know about the EU) and he want to keep the territories he already took.
 
https://www.yahoo.com/news/putin-says-uk...09553.html

And you believe him? Of course he's trying to look reasonable right now, in anticipation of getting Trump o sign on. And what happens then? I don't think for a minunte he's disavowed his 2022 demands.

[The Grand Nudger]

Russia was the 4th largest economy... in ppp...in 2021. Useful idiots everywhere. What does imf have to say about russia in 2024 and 2025?

With regard to the longer-term outlook for Russia, as we have been saying before, the medium-term looks dim. Potential growth has been reduced, that is the result of less technology transfers, less ability to finance that will impact the productive capacity of the Russian economy in the medium-term

Alfred Kammer

It continues at length, the basic gist of it being that russia is fucking itself and all of europe with putins vanity war.
https://www.imf.org/en/News/Articles/202...of-eur-reo

Meanwhile, back in mere reality, day 989 of putins 3 day war. He remains a master strategist.

[TheWhiteMarten]

Well, aren't you a good little Putin propagandist?

Not really; a Putin propagandist would be pushing for more of Ukraine to be conceded rather than just pointing out the reality that the demands have not changed since the beginning.

Actually, a Putin propagandist would be doing everything they could to still find a way and get Harris into power...

[The Architect Of Fate]

Not really; a Putin propagandist would be pushing for more of Ukraine to be conceded rather than just pointing out the reality that the demands have not changed since the beginning.

Nah A Putin propagandist would any position that in anyway favored Russia or try making them seem like a reasonable party with reasonable or acceptable demands. 

Actually, a Putin propagandist would be doing everything they could to still find a way and get Harris into power...

Nah Putin propagandist would want Trump as he's Putins bitch who will give Russia everything it wants and thoroughly fuck Ukraine over

[The Grand Nudger]

Well, aren't you a good little Putin propagandist?

Not really; a Putin propagandist would be pushing for more of Ukraine to be conceded rather than just pointing out the reality that the demands have not changed since the beginning.

Yes, a putin propagandist would do that, by insisting that the conflict be frozen so that russia can rearm, and reinvade.

Actually, a Putin propagandist would be doing everything they could to still find a way and get Harris into power...

Got it right here, a putin propagandist would never stop yammering about trying to get harris into power, because they need gullible rubes like you to make donald king forever.

Do you often find yourself siding with anti-western bobbleheads and viewpoints like the one you're now defending?

As for putins ever changing demands...a very easy google search will disabuse anyone of the notion that the ask has never changed...not that it would be any less ludicrous if it hadn't..even on it's own terms. The russians told ethnically russian ukrainians they could self determinedly go fuck themselves. There's no such thing as the peoples republics. That's russia forever. The russians and the seperatists have been going at it trying to get each other killed for the better part of a year and a half now. They may be the only people who hate russians more than ukranians do right now.

[Belacqua]

Well, aren't you a good little Putin propagandist?

Not really; a Putin propagandist would be pushing for more of Ukraine to be conceded rather than just pointing out the reality that the demands have not changed since the beginning.

Actually, a Putin propagandist would be doing everything they could to still find a way and get Harris into power...

Generally we stick to an ideological binary on this forum. We hate Trump, Putin, and religion. Any statement which is insufficiently negative toward one of those subjects will be interpreted as propaganda for the enemy. Even if it's true. 

For example I said I thought that Harris promising to continue the genocide in Gaza was bad. Because I'm against genocide. For this I was accused of being a Trump supporter. As if any negative statement about Harris is a positive statement in favor of Trump.

The other day I pointed out that during my trips to China I was not followed or kept under special surveillance. I acknowledged that people more important than I am might have different experiences. For this I was accused of being a paid propagandist for China.