Human Nature

[Alan V]

Trump is not necessarily a danger because he is prepared to lie, but many of his lies are demonstrably pernicious.

When Trump first ran for office back in 2016, I read a fact-checking site about his public statements.  It told me that most American politicians lied 12 to 15% of the time, whereas Trump lied over 60% of the time.  The degree and frequency of his lies have proven to be overwhelming.  

That is why he is a demagogue too.  His lies appeal specifically to people's prejudices against liberals, immigrants, the "deep state," and whoever stands in his way.

The fact that so many people can't see his barrage against the facts for what it so obviously is points to a huge flaw in human nature.

[Belacqua]

Trump is not necessarily a danger because he is prepared to lie, but many of his lies are demonstrably pernicious.

When Trump first ran for office back in 2016, I read a fact-checking site about his public statements.  It told me that most American politicians lied 12 to 15% of the time, whereas Trump lied over 60% of the time.  The degree and frequency of his lies have proven to be overwhelming.  

That is why he is a demagogue too.  His lies appeal specifically to people's prejudices against liberals, immigrants, the "deep state," and whoever stands in his way.

The fact that so many people can't see his barrage against the facts for what it so obviously is points to a huge flaw in human nature.

15% is kind of a lot, though, right? I mean, are we really to the point where we think 15% is OK? 

It seems small compared to 60%. But why do we have to put up with even 10%?

This is what we get when we polarize these things, and focus all our blame on one side. We end up defending the team we're on, even though it's only 85% truthful. 

Biden and his team lied about his obvious senility. If you said, "that guy's clearly senile," people would accuse you of working for Russia. (“The Party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command.”) But then suddenly everybody knew it. They lied to cover up scandals he was involved in. If they hadn't lied about these things, the Dems might have had a chance to run a viable candidate, and then we'd be spared another Trump term. 

So this, I think, is a flaw in human nature. We choose up teams, and forgive obvious wrongdoing in our own.

[Ivan Denisovich]

Trump is not necessarily a danger because he is prepared to lie, but many of his lies are demonstrably pernicious.

When Trump first ran for office back in 2016, I read a fact-checking site about his public statements.  It told me that most American politicians lied 12 to 15% of the time, whereas Trump lied over 60% of the time.  The degree and frequency of his lies have proven to be overwhelming.

And yet despite frequency of his lies supposedly being overwhelming he lost popular vote first time. Something to ponder.

That is why he is a demagogue too.  His lies appeal specifically to people's prejudices against liberals, immigrants, the "deep state," and whoever stands in his way.

He is a fascist. His lies are nothing original, though he sounds far dumber than Goebbels and his ilk.

The fact that so many people can't see his barrage against the facts for what it so obviously is points to a huge flaw in human nature.

Does it? So the fact that so many people can* see through his barrage of lies points to something good in human nature? It's not human nature that is to blame for trump I would say but rather ignorance, hatefulness and failures of previous administrations to address very real grievances that people voting for him have. Real grievances like offshoring jobs or feeling that gov does shit for them (which considering the stagnation of federal minimum wage for example seems pretty on point) not some bullshit "deep state". It's mighty convenient to blame human nature when causes of trump success are the same as with other fascists - real inequality and anger rising from it coupled with ignorance and propaganda. trump is nothing extraordinary - his lies aren't any more outrageous than lies of jarosław kaczyński who called Germany a IV Reich and claimed that childbirth rates are low cause young women drink to excess (sadly I don't have appropriate idiom to convey it). I'm afraid that reason for trump seeming so monstrous is an american exceptionalism of beholders when in reality USA is a country like any other and just as capable of sliding into fascism as every other country.

*trump got only 2 284 952 votes more than Harris if quoted article is correct It hardly can be nature fault, unless some people are just born worse but I doubt that you would claim such

[Alan V]

The fact that so many people can't see his barrage against the facts for what it so obviously is points to a huge flaw in human nature.

Does it? So the fact that so many people can* see through his barrage of lies points to something good in human nature? It's not human nature that is to blame for trump I would say but rather ignorance, hatefulness and failures of previous administrations to address very real grievances that people voting for him have. Real grievances like offshoring jobs or feeling that gov does shit for them (which considering the stagnation of federal minimum wage for example seems pretty on point) not some bullshit "deep state". It's mighty convenient to blame human nature when causes of trump success are the same as with other fascists - real inequality and anger rising from it coupled with ignorance and propaganda. trump is nothing extraordinary - his lies aren't any more outrageous than lies of jarosław kaczyński who called Germany a IV Reich and claimed that childbirth rates are low cause young women drink to excess (sadly I don't have appropriate idiom to convey it). I'm afraid that reason for trump seeming so monstrous is an american exceptionalism of beholders when in reality USA is a country like any other and just as capable of sliding into fascism as every other country.

I don't see the solution to many of our problems as political at all, but rather as educational. That's a big part of the reason I am blaming human nature now. Our collective laziness and intellectual dishonesty have caught up with us, just as you said above.

This is also why I am not at all sure that politicians can solve many of our problems for us, though they must of course talk as if they can. Many of them seem to be followers rather than leaders, as Trump has demonstrated. Our real options may be more limited and difficult than we imagine, so of course many people vote for the impossible.

[Alan V]

So this, I think, is a flaw in human nature. We choose up teams, and forgive obvious wrongdoing in our own.

Tribalism is one of the problems with human nature, sure. But I don't think I said that 12 to 15% of lies was okay.

Democrats seem to be much more critical of each other than Republicans tend to be. But when the house is on fire, you pay attention to that first.

[Ivan Denisovich]

I don't see the solution to many of our problems as political at all, but rather as educational.  That's a big part of the reason I am blaming human nature now.  Our collective laziness and intellectual dishonesty have caught up with us, just as you said above.

Education is political though so in the end US problems are political, in my view at least. I also wouldn't blame human nature as it would imply that those caught into fascist propaganda are worse and inherently flawed, where in my view they might be walking sacks of shit but no different in essence to any other human being. If human nature were to blame then everyone would vote on trump elsewise it would mean that some people are naturally better, not simply better informed, educated or plainly well off enough to disregard fascist rhetoric.

This is also why I am not at all sure that politicians can solve many of our problems for us, though they must of course talk as if they can.  Many of them seem to be followers rather than leaders, as Trump has demonstrated.  Our real options may be more limited and difficult than we imagine, so of course many people vote for the impossible.

I'm quite sure that politicians can solve majority of US problem or at least most pressing ones (healthcare, imprisonment rate, unfair taxes). It's not lack of means that is problem but lack of vision, just like in Poland where almost nobody can see past neoliberalism and inequality it promotes and then wonders why extremists are gaining popularity. If people perceive state as continuously failing them then they might want to tear it down, simple as that.

[Alan V]

I don't see the solution to many of our problems as political at all, but rather as educational.  That's a big part of the reason I am blaming human nature now.  Our collective laziness and intellectual dishonesty have caught up with us, just as you said above.

Education is political though so in the end US problems are political, in my view at least. I also wouldn't blame human nature as it would imply that those caught into fascist propaganda are worse and inherently flawed, where in my view they might be walking sacks of shit but no different in essence to any other human being. If human nature were to blame then everyone would vote on trump elsewise it would mean that some people are naturally better, not simply better informed, educated or plainly well  off enough to disregard fascist rhetoric.

This is also why I am not at all sure that politicians can solve many of our problems for us, though they must of course talk as if they can.  Many of them seem to be followers rather than leaders, as Trump has demonstrated.  Our real options may be more limited and difficult than we imagine, so of course many people vote for the impossible.

I'm quite sure that politicians can solve majority of US problem or at least most pressing ones (healthcare, imprisonment rate, unfair taxes). It's not lack of means that is problem but lack of vision, just like in Poland where almost nobody can see past neoliberalism and inequality it promotes and then wonders why extremists are gaining popularity. If people perceive state as continuously  failing them then they might want to tear it down, simple as that.

You could be right of course, although I disagree.  People who are well-enough educated are on their guard against common misperceptions, misinformation, and fallacies in thinking -- to which our common human nature makes us prone.  Many atheists posting in this forum are good examples of this standard.  It's like the difference between those who are vaccinated and those who aren't.

"Education is political"?  Only to those who want to make people think it is, i.e. the people who want to peddle disinformation.  Theists jump to mind.  Climate change, evolution, vaccinations, and other such information are considered matters of fact to the experts.

The reason why politicians often can't tackle our problems is that they lack the leverage to do so, largely because so many other politicians oppose them.  So politicians often need education too.  I don't think you could force people in a democracy if they were unwilling to change because they were poorly educated.  They would just vote for people who didn't make the same demands on them.  That, in fact, seems to be what has happened.

[Ivan Denisovich]

You could be right of course, although I disagree.  People who are well-enough educated are on their guard against common misperceptions, misinformation, and fallacies in thinking -- to which our common human nature makes us prone.  Many atheists posting in this forum are good examples of this standard.  It's like the difference between those who are vaccinated and those who aren't.

Hardly. People who are educated are simply better at rationalizing bullshit they believe in. One easily can be educated and maybe even expert in some subject and buy into conspiracies outside of relevant field of experience. Education does not guarantee wisdom and might even stump it if is arranged badly enough.

"Education is political"?  Only to those who want to make people think it is, i.e. the people who want to peddle disinformation.  Theists jump to mind.  Climate change, evolution, vaccinations, and other such information are considered matters of fact to the experts.

Of course it is. What is taught in schools is matter of policy and what "experts" think might easily be influenced by their political views. You try to use clear cut examples but consider economy or philosophy - when I was in school teachers were saying that low taxes are good and marxism is height of evil. That's however ideological and political stance not objective fact, just like myriads of other things taught in schools.

The reason why politicians often can't tackle our problems is that they lack the leverage to do so, largely because so many other politicians oppose them.  So politicians often need education too.  I don't think you could force people in a democracy if they were unwilling to change because they were poorly educated.  They would just vote for people who didn't make the same demands on them.  That, in fact, seems to be what has happened.

I disagree. What's more I view this alleged opposition as perfect excuse - they will stop us so we will not even bother to fight. But when one does not fight for what one deems right then how one can expect voters following him? I maintain that what stops politicians is lack of vision and satisfaction with status quo. From my pov it is no wonder that millions of Americans stayed home and others decided to tear down shit. trump certainly changes things (for the worse of course) and change is what many seems to want.

[Angrboda]

Trump is not necessarily a danger because he is prepared to lie, but many of his lies are demonstrably pernicious.

When Trump first ran for office back in 2016, I read a fact-checking site about his public statements.  It told me that most American politicians lied 12 to 15% of the time, whereas Trump lied over 60% of the time.  The degree and frequency of his lies have proven to be overwhelming.  

That is why he is a demagogue too.  His lies appeal specifically to people's prejudices against liberals, immigrants, the "deep state," and whoever stands in his way.

The fact that so many people can't see his barrage against the facts for what it so obviously is points to a huge flaw in human nature.

Your pessimism concerning Trump's lies is because of your partisanship. To those who favor him, his ability to manipulate the media and dictate the narrative with his lies is a plus.

We are less concerned about lies when it serves our own interest. Historically though, lies have served a useful function in social contexts. Perhaps it's only with humanity moving beyond small groups that it's concerning.

[Angrboda]

You could be right of course, although I disagree.  People who are well-enough educated are on their guard against common misperceptions, misinformation, and fallacies in thinking -- to which our common human nature makes us prone.  Many atheists posting in this forum are good examples of this standard.  It's like the difference between those who are vaccinated and those who aren't.

Hardly. People who are educated are simply better at rationalizing bullshit they believe in. One easily can be educated and maybe even expert in some subject and buy into conspiracies outside of relevant field of experience. Education does not guarantee wisdom and might even stump it if is arranged badly enough.

Perhaps, but I'd rather an informed voter who ratiocinates upon the issues than an uninformed one who votes based upon extraneous factors.