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Knowing everything and allowing evil
February 3, 2012 at 12:15 am
It's usually argued that allowing evil was necessary to allow free-will.
A problem with this is that we know some people are not evil but good. God could have just created the good people and spared the evil people that would go to hell from being created.
God is believed to have knowledge of all potential souls. Even if it's 1 in a trillion souls that are good and would not do any serious evil, out of infinite potential souls, he could pick only those ones.
At the very least, he could have only created the people that would not earn hell.
The people he would chose to do good with same free-will could be created, so it would not negate free-will at all.
Thus evil is not necessary to allow free-will if God knows everything.
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RE: Knowing everything and allowing evil
February 3, 2012 at 12:28 am
Sigh, when will you realize that God has no power. If he did exist, he would either be horribly evil or horribly irresponsible.
"Sisters, you know only the north; I have traveled in the south lands. There are churches there, believe me, that cut their children too, as the people of Bolvangar did--not in the same way, but just as horribly. They cut their sexual organs, yes, both boys and girls; they cut them with knives so that they shan't feel. That is what the Church does, and every church is the same: control, destroy, obliterate every good feeling. So if a war comes, and the Church is on one side of it, we must be on the other, no matter what strange allies we find ourselves bound to."
-Ruta Skadi, The Subtle Knife
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RE: Knowing everything and allowing evil
February 3, 2012 at 12:30 am
The question still goes begging to be answered...why believe in a god at all??
"The Universe is run by the complex interweaving of three elements: energy, matter, and enlightened self-interest." G'Kar-B5
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RE: Knowing everything and allowing evil
February 3, 2012 at 12:50 am
(February 3, 2012 at 12:15 am)MysticKnight Wrote: It's usually argued that allowing evil was necessary to allow free-will.
A problem with this is that we know some people are not evil but good. God could have just created the good people and spared the evil people that would go to hell from being created.
God is believed to have knowledge of all potential souls. Even if it's 1 in a trillion souls that are good and would not do any serious evil, out of infinite potential souls, he could pick only those ones.
At the very least, he could have only created the people that would not earn hell.
The people he would chose to do good with same free-will could be created, so it would not negate free-will at all.
Thus evil is not necessary to allow free-will if God knows everything.
Your mistake is believing anyone is good compared to the perfect God. God is omniscient and understands what good is. Evil = sin so to speak, it is those who sin and are not believers in Christ who will spend eternity in hell. Sin = not doing the will of God, I do not know how anyone can possibly be perfect enough to do God's will every day. Forgiveness is the key, forgiveness comes through Christ. Everyone sins, it's those who accept Christ who attain forgiveness, those who do not accept Christ do not receive forgiveness and thus hell is their eternal destination.
God loves those who believe and those who do not and the same goes for me, you have no choice in this matter. That puts the matter of total free will to rest.
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RE: Knowing everything and allowing evil
February 3, 2012 at 1:46 am
Mystic Knight blindly labels everyone as either good or evil. This is not reality. Who do you know in your life that is completely good or completely evil. This is complete hypothetical nonsense! You live in a fantasy world. Get a life! So what are you simpleton, good or evil? Or maybe just something a little in between??????
You, yourself, as much as anybody in the entire universe, deserve your love and affection.
There are only two mistakes one can make along the road to truth; not going all the way, and not starting.
Buddha 
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RE: Knowing everything and allowing evil
February 3, 2012 at 2:18 am
(February 3, 2012 at 12:28 am)AthiestAtheist Wrote: Sigh, when will you realize that God has no power. If he did exist, he would either be horribly evil or horribly irresponsible.
OR,
Quote:I want you to know, when it comes to believing in god- I really tried. I really really tried. I tried to believe that there is a god who created each one of us in his own image and likeness, loves us very much and keeps a close eye on things. I really tried to believe that, but I gotta tell you, the longer you live, the more you look around, the more you realize...something is FUCKED-UP. Something is WRONG here. War, disease, death, destruction, hunger, filth, poverty, torture, crime, corruption and the Ice Capades. Something is definitely wrong. This is NOT good work. If this is the best god can do, I am NOT impressed. Results like these do not belong on the resume of a supreme being. This is the kind of shit you'd expect from an office temp with a bad attitude.
--George Carlin
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RE: Knowing everything and allowing evil
February 3, 2012 at 4:16 am
(February 3, 2012 at 12:50 am)Godschild Wrote: Your mistake is believing anyone is good compared to the perfect God. God is omniscient and understands what good is. Evil = sin so to speak, it is those who sin and are not believers in Christ who will spend eternity in hell. Sin = not doing the will of God, I do not know how anyone can possibly be perfect enough to do God's will every day. Forgiveness is the key, forgiveness comes through Christ. Everyone sins, it's those who accept Christ who attain forgiveness, those who do not accept Christ do not receive forgiveness and thus hell is their eternal destination.
Doesn't that seem like a very weird and perverse system? Surely anyone who has an ounce of compassion and empathy would have not created the human race in the first place rather then bringing billions of people into existence in the sure and certain knowledge that after their brief spell on Earth they are destined to an eternity of torment.
I mean, would anyone here start a new family with their partner if they 100% knew that any children would be horribly disabled and spend what lives they did have in crippling pain?
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RE: Knowing everything and allowing evil
February 3, 2012 at 6:15 am
(This post was last modified: February 3, 2012 at 6:15 am by Welsh cake.)
(February 3, 2012 at 12:15 am)MysticKnight Wrote: A problem with this is that we know some people are not evil but good. God could have just created the good people and spared the evil people that would go to hell from being created. As a deist, why does this concern you? You believe god is apathetic towards the human race, and the universe as a whole.
(February 3, 2012 at 12:50 am)Godschild Wrote: Your mistake is believing anyone is good compared to the perfect God. God is omniscient and understands what good is. Evil = sin so to speak, it is those who sin and are not believers in Christ who will spend eternity in hell. Sin = not doing the will of God, I do not know how anyone can possibly be perfect enough to do God's will every day. Forgiveness is the key, forgiveness comes through Christ. Everyone sins, it's those who accept Christ who attain forgiveness, those who do not accept Christ do not receive forgiveness and thus hell is their eternal destination. Preachy drivel as usual child. Let me tell you about mistakes. Mine is not fucking ignoring your inane ranting and raving from the start.
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RE: Knowing everything and allowing evil
February 3, 2012 at 6:54 am
I'm suprisingly with BGood on this one. As a Christian I believe that once of the age of reason we're all some degree of evil, and that none are good or worthy. Sure they can be less evil than most, and individually subjectively choose the same moral choice as you in a situation (or better). That doesn't make them absolute good, just temporarily beneficial to society. He did however create people that didn't earn hell; we all do that on our own daily.
As far as your rationale; for any people to earn hell or heaven, they would have to be able to freely choose between good and evil. You can't choose something you don't know exists. Earning implies choice and if there are no options there can be no choice. Knowledge of what evil is, but choosing what is God's will would then be what earns your ticket to the pearly gates.
Now everyone can jump on me for freely choosing vs. coersion ...
@Dar- To answer your analogy of starting a new family; I knew that the possibility for them to live a painful life existed, yet I still choose to have a family. I would expect that if I planned to have 1 trillion kids that some would indeed live a painful life, but that wouldn't make me question the reason for me having a family. That reason is because I want someone to show my love to that would hopefully grow up to be a good influence on society.
"There ought to be a term that would designate those who actually follow the teachings of Jesus, since the word 'Christian' has been largely divorced from those teachings, and so polluted by fundamentalists that it has come to connote their polar opposite: intolerance, vindictive hatred, and bigotry." -- Philip Stater, Huffington Post
always working on cleaning my windows- me regarding Johari
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RE: Knowing everything and allowing evil
February 3, 2012 at 8:03 am
(February 3, 2012 at 12:50 am)Godschild Wrote: Your mistake is believing anyone is good compared to the perfect God. God is omniscient and understands what good is. Evil = sin so to speak, it is those who sin and are not believers in Christ who will spend eternity in hell. Sin = not doing the will of God, I do not know how anyone can possibly be perfect enough to do God's will every day. Forgiveness is the key, forgiveness comes through Christ. Everyone sins, it's those who accept Christ who attain forgiveness, those who do not accept Christ do not receive forgiveness and thus hell is their eternal destination.
Since it has been established rather conclusively that your god is a perverse, egotistical little twat who embodies ALL that we find most reprehensible in humanity, I think your claim to his perfection rings rather hollow.
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