Bible contradictions?

[Phil]

Anything unchanging is eternal and therefore outside of time (All the philosophy classes I ever took came to that conclusion without ever mentioning God).

If that is in fact what they said, they were wrong. Anything that is atemporal does not exist in space. Anything not existing in space, isn't in the universe. Next time use your fucking brain before spouting stupidity.

Most scientists say time and space did not exist before our universe.

Not at all retard. It is said that time as well as space may very well have existed just not as we know it. For example a hypothesis is that space and time existed as DeSitter space in a high entropy state. Next time you even think about discussing science, don't.

[NoMoreFaith]

Phil, have I ever told you, that you're one of my favourite posters.

[Phil]

Since God is not made of physical material, he can't change.

Can't believe I missed this. Ok, your saying god is a Boltzmann brain? This puts you firmly in the "I wish this asshole was aborted after birth" camp. Go fuck yourself you retard moron.

[Valdyr]

Anything unchanging is eternal and therefore outside of time (All the philosophy classes I ever took came to that conclusion without ever mentioning God).

No, anything unchanging is atemporal. We cannot conclude that there is an "outside" of time. Furthermore, God being atemporal makes the notion even more incoherent. How can there be an atemporal agency? How could god have "created" the world, if creation is an event and is therefore temporal?

Time has an elusive definition. People measure it in many ways, from progress to the vibration of molecules.

Distance has an elusive definition. People measure it in many ways, from meters to inches.

See the problem here? A metric is not the same thing as a definition. You can't just say that God is atemporal and then when challenged backpedal and do a bunch of hand-waving to obscure the meaning of "time." If you push any word hard enough it will break, but you're being disingenuous if you try to honestly claim that those in this discussion don't have some rough, shared idea of what "time" is.

Since God is not made of physical material, he can't change.

Now I don't accept your premise here (that something needs to be made of physical material to change), but let's assume it. If God can't change, how can God "do" anything? For example, suppose I claim that God decided to create the world. Well, "decision" implies that there was one state (which we can call t1) in which God had not made the decision (putting issues aside about how he could be omniscient and yet freely decide to create the world), and that then there was another state (t2) in which God had made the decision. If God is atemporal, and that which is not made out of physical substance cannot change, how do you propose God transitions between these two states?

Most scientists say time and space did not exist before our universe. That means its cause transcends time and space.

No it doesn't. Suppose we accept a metaphysical interpretation of those scientific theories, as you seem to be doing. If time has an absolute beginning (the claim), i.e. it extends finitely in one direction, then there can't be a "cause" outside of it, because causation is bound up with time. Causation is a temporal relation, even if the cause is simultaneous with its effect, or is retrocausal (which would be a possibility if there was something wrong with general relativity).

Outside our universe, eternity exists. Or are you saying our universe is all there is, and it was caused by nothing?

If the universe is "all there is" in the strong, metaphysical sense, then it doesn't need a cause.

[Undeceived]

If that is in fact what they said, they were wrong. Anything that is atemporal does not exist in space. Anything not existing in space, isn't in the universe. Next time use your fucking brain before spouting stupidity.

That's what I said. God is apart from time and space.

Not at all retard. It is said that time as well as space may very well have existed just not as we know it. For example a hypothesis is that space and time existed as DeSitter space in a high entropy state. Next time you even think about discussing science, don't.

Please refrain from calling names. This depends on who you talk to. The people who hold your described view pulled it off the top of their heads. You could base the pre-universe in our current logic and say there was a larger timeless 'playground' in which all the potential big bangs could have occurred or you could appeal to a logic we know entirely nothing about--meaning, you're distancing yourself from everything scientific.

[DeistPaladin]

That's what I said. God is apart from time and space.

So God to you exists nowhere and at no time?

[Minimalist]

I guess chippy gave it up.

Judas died how?

"And he cast down the pieces of silver into the temple and departed, and went out and hanged himself." (MAT 27:5)

"And falling headlong, he burst asunder in the midst, and all of his bowels gushed out." (ACT 1:18)

Just another poke in his eye.

[YahwehIsTheWay]

That's what I said. God is apart from time and space.

Nonsense. Clearly you haven't read the Bible. God has a physical body and he walks, talks, wrestles with Jacob, eats lunch with Abraham, gives a speech to the nation of Judea and shows off his magnificent cock to Ezekiel. Now you tell me how a being with a clearly physical body can exist apart from space.

I'd love for you to recite chapter and verse for me where God is outside time and space. The scriptures I've read say that Heaven is a dome above us, that the sky (or "Heaven", they're both the same word in ancient Hebrew) was built on the second day. Our Lord opens windows in the sky when it rains. This tells us he lives above us in the sky dome that we call Heaven.

Get with the program. You sound more like a New Ager than a Christian to me.

[Undeceived]

No, anything unchanging is atemporal. We cannot conclude that there is an "outside" of time. Furthermore, God being atemporal makes the notion even more incoherent. How can there be an atemporal agency? How could god have "created" the world, if creation is an event and is therefore temporal?

I view the terms as synonymous, and so does dictionary.com. Actually, eternalness might take atemporality a step further. Not only is God outside of time's limitations, he has no beginning or end. In any case, God created time, so therefore he has power over it without having to enter inside of it. His angels and natural forces do temporal work for him. There is no proven logic that says he can't have existed for eternity and still touch whatever is bound by time. 2 Peter 3:8 says, "With the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day." That would explain why he is in no rush to answer our prayers the minute we make them. He sees the full picture, and knows just where everyone is going to be at any given second. When we watch a video tape, are we then confined to the time in the movie? No. We can fast-forward, rewind, re-record, and the characters on the tape will be oblivious to our actions.

Distance has an elusive definition. People measure it in many ways, from meters to inches.

See the problem here? A metric is not the same thing as a definition. You can't just say that God is atemporal and then when challenged backpedal and do a bunch of hand-waving to obscure the meaning of "time." If you push any word hard enough it will break, but you're being disingenuous if you try to honestly claim that those in this discussion don't have some rough, shared idea of what "time" is.

I'm glad you saw my point. We 'measure' time, rather than define it. That's why there's no definition.

Now I don't accept your premise here (that something needs to be made of physical material to change), but let's assume it. If God can't change, how can God "do" anything? For example, suppose I claim that God decided to create the world. Well, "decision" implies that there was one state (which we can call t1) in which God had not made the decision (putting issues aside about how he could be omniscient and yet freely decide to create the world), and that then there was another state (t2) in which God had made the decision. If God is atemporal, and that which is not made out of physical substance cannot change, how do you propose God transitions between these two states?

Decisions can also be atemporal. All the while God existed (forever) he has made a conscious decision to create the earth. He made it in the beginning of his eternity and the end of his eternity, except there is no beginning and end. You're assuming there was time before God made the decision. He may have always known. The moment we try to place where we are on the spectrum of eternity we've broken our concept of God's atemporality. The more I think of this, the more I see that both sides are circular and you really can't argue one way or the other. God created us, so it is reasonable to say we wouldn't completely understand his nature.

"Most scientists say time and space did not exist before our universe. That means its cause transcends time and space."

No it doesn't. Suppose we accept a metaphysical interpretation of those scientific theories, as you seem to be doing. If time has an absolute beginning (the claim), i.e. it extends finitely in one direction, then there can't be a "cause" outside of it, because causation is bound up with time. Causation is a temporal relation, even if the cause is simultaneous with its effect, or is retrocausal (which would be a possibility if there was something wrong with general relativity).

Fair enough. But are we then to say that time is eternal? Saying time has no beginning or end is either admitting that there's an eternity outside our universe or it's bringing us to the conclusion that time is a measurement and nothing more. If the latter is true, we should be arguing about change and ability to change instead. Does God change? Change (by our experience) always requires an outside stimulus. God would have no outside stimulus. Everything he created was already in his mind, and he foresaw it all, so nothing could surprise him.

If the universe is "all there is" in the strong, metaphysical sense, then it doesn't need a cause.

Yet it has a beginning. In the material world, all beginnings have causes. And the universe didn't just "come to be" billions of years ago. It supposedly exploded from one source of energy. I think it's funny when science tries to explain unscientific things. There were no natural laws before the universe's beginning, so what laws existed, and why should there be any at all? If we're the only universe that was bound to come into existence, why did we come in such a lucky life-supporting form? The chances of the Big Bang arranging itself right is no better than a hurricane sweeping through a junk yard and assembling a Boeing 747 (1 in trillions). So if you claim the trillions-of-Big-Bang-attempts idea, you need time to operate in. If not, we truly are a lucky species.

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That's what I said. God is apart from time and space.

Nonsense. Clearly you haven't read the Bible. God has a physical body and he walks, talks, wrestles with Jacob, eats lunch with Abraham, gives a speech to the nation of Judea and shows off his magnificent cock to Ezekiel. Now you tell me how a being with a clearly physical body can exist apart from space.

I'd love for you to recite chapter and verse for me where God is outside time and space. The scriptures I've read say that Heaven is a dome above us, that the sky (or "Heaven", they're both the same word in ancient Hebrew) was built on the second day. Our Lord opens windows in the sky when it rains. This tells us he lives above us in the sky dome that we call Heaven.

Get with the program. You sound more like a New Ager than a Christian to me.

http://www.gotquestions.org/God-physical-body.html

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Judas died how?

"And he cast down the pieces of silver into the temple and departed, and went out and hanged himself." (MAT 27:5)

"And falling headlong, he burst asunder in the midst, and all of his bowels gushed out." (ACT 1:18)

There are two possible explanations for this. Either the Jews threw already-hung Judas over the wall into the valley (since there weren't supposed to be dead bodies within Jerusalem on the Passover) or "hung" meant the more popular "impaled".

[The Grand Nudger]

I view the terms as synonymous, and so does dictionary.com. Actually, eternalness might take atemporality a step further. Not only is God outside of time's limitations, he has no beginning or end. In any case, God created time, so therefore he has power over it without having to enter inside of it. His angels and natural forces do temporal work for him. There is no proven logic that says he can't have existed for eternity and still touch whatever is bound by time. 2 Peter 3:8 says, "With the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day." That would explain why he is in no rush to answer our prayers the minute we make them. He sees the full picture, and knows just where everyone is going to be at any given second. When we watch a video tape, are we then confined to the time in the movie? No. We can fast-forward, rewind, re-record, and the characters on the tape will be oblivious to our actions.

Then your god is a malicious precog. By the by, why are we just assuming that being "outside of time" automatically grants one control or dominion over time (or anything..maybe your god is just a bum who sits there and watches like a peeper, unable to effect anything at all, would explain alot)? You'll have to do more than simply assume so. In addition to being a malicious precog, it still doesn't exist (at least not within this temporal existence, as per your own claim). Other explanations might be offered for why your prayers have never been answered.

Decisions can also be atemporal. All the while God existed (forever) he has made a conscious decision to create the earth. He made it in the beginning of his eternity and the end of his eternity, except there is no beginning and end. You're assuming there was time before God made the decision. He may have always known. The moment we try to place where we are on the spectrum of eternity we've broken our concept of God's atemporality. The more I think of this, the more I see that both sides are circular and you really can't argue one way or the other. God created us, so it is reasonable to say we wouldn't completely understand his nature.

Care to point me in the direction of an "atemporal decision"? Again, malicious precog. Is it impossible to argue for any part of your god myth without wrecking another? Doesn't look like it from here.

Fair enough. But are we then to say that time is eternal? Saying time has no beginning or end is either admitting that there's an eternity outside our universe or it's bringing us to the conclusion that time is a measurement and nothing more. If the latter is true, we should be arguing about change and ability to change instead. Does God change? Change (by our experience) always requires an outside stimulus. God would have no outside stimulus. Everything he created was already in his mind, and he foresaw it all, so nothing could surprise him.

Strange, I didn't see any such admission, implication, or suggestion. God created what, exactly? You can't just keep saying it, you have to demonstrate it.

Yet it has a beginning. In the material world, all beginnings have causes. And the universe didn't just "come to be" billions of years ago. It supposedly exploded from one source of energy. I think it's funny when science tries to explain unscientific things. There were no natural laws before the universe's beginning, so what laws existed, and why should there be any at all? If we're the only universe that was bound to come into existence, why did we come in such a lucky life-supporting form? The chances of the Big Bang arranging itself right is no better than a hurricane sweeping through a junk yard and assembling a Boeing 747 (1 in trillions). So if you claim the trillions-of-Big-Bang-attempts idea, you need time to operate in. If not, we truly are a lucky species.

As opposed to some other world? Demonstrate the existence of this world? Point to an unscientific "thing"? Lucky life supporting form? We are no such thing, our universe is a meat grinder. I thought I'd heard the last of the junkyard and 747 apologetics, but I guess I was wrong, and I guess you aren't very well informed.