Serious Query Regarding Jesus

[Orion3T]

Thanks to those who have actually attempted to answer my question sensibly.

I think some folks in this forum could reconsider why you're bothering to post before doing so, unless you just want these forums to be nothing but childish arguments. You make both sides look bad.

I didn't realise this was a place to come to reconfirm your own atheism, I was hoping for some educated and rational answers. I got some, and I thank those who gave them. It's unfortunate they were so outnumbered by off-topic unnecessary diatribe.

[KichigaiNeko]

Thanks to those who have actually attempted to answer my question sensibly.

I think some folks in this forum could reconsider why you're bothering to post before doing so, unless you just want these forums to be nothing but childish arguments. You make both sides look bad.

I didn't realise this was a place to come to reconfirm your own atheism, I was hoping for some educated and rational answers. I got some, and I thank those who gave them. It's unfortunate they were so outnumbered by off-topic unnecessary diatribe.

I think you should get a life orion..This is a community and as such does NOT take itself THAT seriously. Only theists take religion seriously enough to murder, rape, mutilate, burn, vilify and scorn those who don't agree with them.

Go and do some serious research and stop being lazy by coming to an atheist forum to find out whether or not your belief in this Jesus character is worthy of your effort.

[Minimalist]

And think--thousands of people converted to Christianity within a few years of his alleged resurrection.

Xtian propaganda with a big dash of Hollywood horseshit thrown in. Xtianity seems to have been about 5-10% of the population by the time of Constantine.
Greco-Roman writers only begin to take note of them in the late 2d century AD and the "persecutions" which xtians love to prattle on about appear only in the mid 3d century and last barely a dozen years.

In short, your fairy tale vision of the growth of your bullshit religion is in keeping with the fairy tale vision of your alleged god.

Time to grow up and learn stuff.

[Oldandeasilyconfused]

Thanks to those who have actually attempted to answer my question sensibly.

I think some folks in this forum could reconsider why you're bothering to post before doing so, unless you just want these forums to be nothing but childish arguments. You make both sides look bad.

I didn't realise this was a place to come to reconfirm your own atheism, I was hoping for some educated and rational answers. I got some, and I thank those who gave them. It's unfortunate they were so outnumbered by off-topic unnecessary diatribe.

Thank you so much for your input.Always refreshing to have a different point of view. Let's run it up the flag pole and see if anyone salutes.

I can see you are about to take part in some robust discussions, with many free and frank exchanges.

[Godscreated]

And the lunatic fringe pops in from the peanut gallery with a little jesus bullshit to sprinkle.

To get twelve men to die for the same lie

So I guess Osama bin Laden's 9-11 hijackers are getting it on with 72 virgins because WHO WOULD DIE FOR A FUCKING LIE, right, moron?

They believed the 72 virgin junk and the other trappings that go with it, so to them there was no lie. If Christ had not risen from the grave the 12 would have know. Think things through Minny.

[Creed of Heresy]

And the lunatic fringe pops in from the peanut gallery with a little jesus bullshit to sprinkle.

To get twelve men to die for the same lie

So I guess Osama bin Laden's 9-11 hijackers are getting it on with 72 virgins because WHO WOULD DIE FOR A FUCKING LIE, right, moron?

They believed the 72 virgin junk and the other trappings that go with it, so to them there was no lie. If Christ had not risen from the grave the 12 would have know. Think things through Minny.

Your argument runs the assumption [yes, assumption] that these twelve DID know.

There's only one problem: The bible was written in the FOUR gospels. We have ZERO eye-witness testimony independently verified by third parties that such a thing happened, therefore the entire event is called into amiguity, and given that such a miraculous event like someone RISING FROM THE FUCKING GRAVE AFTER BEING CONFIRMED TO BE DEAD AS THEY CAN GET should have been recorded by every single last historian within a 200 mile radius within the half-decade following such a unheard-of event. And yet we don't see a single fucking mention by ANY single historian AT ALL. Even if there had been mere RUMORS, the event would have been recorded by SOME independent source. But no, we hear NOTHING about it by any third parties.

I am sure individuals such as yourself totally believe every accusation and rumor you hear, too, because if you believe one unsubstantiated claim you might as well just believe them all. Which scares me when I consider people like you may end up on the juror's stand, deciding the fate of an individual. It scares me to NO END.

[Godscreated]

You have many problems with your theory, I'm going to address just one, Jesus loyal followers would not have suffered the way they did unless they knew for certain He was who He claimed to be. To get twelve men to die for the same lie, especially the way they died, is an impossibility at least one would have spilled the beans and come clean about the lie.

Two big problems with your excuse.

First, OP specifically stated that some of them may have been deceived. So, yes, they certainly did believe for that Jesus was who he claimed to be, when in fact he wasn't.

Second, soldiers, freedom fighters etc die for a cause all the time. These are just 12 men whom Jesus might have chosen because they were willing to give up their lives for what they thought was greater good. If only they knew.

Like Minny you have not thought this through. Either all knew He did or did not rise from the grave, this is a simple fact. If they knew He did not then some would not be willing to die for a lie. If He did then it's still possible not all would be willing to die the deaths they did, however they did, so they must have known something you're missing out on.

Yes soldiers and freedom fighters know they are fighting for a true cause and are willing to die for what they know to be truth. You in your statement above made the case, you said, "if only they knew," and before that, "what they thought was a greater good," you are saying they were not sure, if so then some of the 12 would have bailed out on the cause. Let me state again, they knew one way or the other that Christ rose from the dead, and since they all died horrible deaths they knew something you're over looking. Remember Judas did not believe and sold Christ out, when He realized the truth he to paid a price.

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And the lunatic fringe pops in from the peanut gallery with a little jesus bullshit to sprinkle.

To get twelve men to die for the same lie

So I guess Osama bin Laden's 9-11 hijackers are getting it on with 72 virgins because WHO WOULD DIE FOR A FUCKING LIE, right, moron?

They believed the 72 virgin junk and the other trappings that go with it, so to them there was no lie. If Christ had not risen from the grave the 12 would have know. Think things through Minny.

Your argument runs the assumption [yes, assumption] that these twelve DID know.

There's only one problem: The bible was written in the FOUR gospels. We have ZERO eye-witness testimony independently verified by third parties that such a thing happened, therefore the entire event is called into amiguity, and given that such a miraculous event like someone RISING FROM THE FUCKING GRAVE AFTER BEING CONFIRMED TO BE DEAD AS THEY CAN GET should have been recorded by every single last historian within a 200 mile radius within the half-decade following such a unheard-of event. And yet we don't see a single fucking mention by ANY single historian AT ALL. Even if there had been mere RUMORS, the event would have been recorded by SOME independent source. But no, we hear NOTHING about it by any third parties.

I am sure individuals such as yourself totally believe every accusation and rumor you hear, too, because if you believe one unsubstantiated claim you might as well just believe them all. Which scares me when I consider people like you may end up on the juror's stand, deciding the fate of an individual. It scares me to NO END.

Then stay out of trouble and you will have nothing to worry about. Hey, look up the word "faith" in the dictionary, you could get a clue. By the way how does the OT get written into the four Gospels, strange thing for you to say.

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Jesus loyal followers would not have suffered the way they did unless they knew for certain He was who He claimed to be wrong.

Bollocks.

To this day nobody knows 'for certain' that Jesus (who may or may not have existed) was who the mythology which is the NT claims him to have been. Personal certitude is not the same as certainty.

His putative apostles may or may not have been aware of the suffering in their future,and may or may not have accepted it willingly. We have no way of knowing their motivation. The Gospels DO tell us Peter wasn't all that keen, denying he even knew Jesus; three times.

My point exactly, before Christ was crucified and rose from the grave he was not sure, same for Judas, after He was crucified and rose, Peter and all the disciples were true believers, hence they came to a reality of who Christ truly was. They found their proof.

[The Grand Nudger]

-in the narrative.

[Orion3T]

I think you should get a life orion..This is a community and as such does NOT take itself THAT seriously. Only theists take religion seriously enough to murder, rape, mutilate, burn, vilify and scorn those who don't agree with them.

Go and do some serious research and stop being lazy by coming to an atheist forum to find out whether or not your belief in this Jesus character is worthy of your effort.

I rest my case.

Clearly you did not read most of my posts. Apparently didn't even look at the religious view I have on my profile.

I'm not a theist. I stated multiple times that I have serious doubts over the existence of Jesus. That's just not the question I asked, and those who didn't bother to read carefully were just counter-productive.

What I did get was evangelising from supposed Christians, and the usual escalations from their opposition.

Here's what I asked:

"I'd like to address this to those who are familiar with New Testament scripture, but are non-believers or, ideally, ex-believers.

Are there any serious considerations of the hypothesis as follows:

Apparently I phrased the question so poorly that readers thought I was a believer who was trying to convince people Jesus was real, or that Christians took it as an attack on their faith.

Both are wrong - I was looking for a serious discussion about plausible interpretations of a book that exists whether we atheists like it or not.

According to you though, this community isn't here for serious discussions, so I question why it exists at all.

I had hoped 'atheistforums.org' might be a good place for honest enquiry, sadly it has fallen far short of that mark. A serious let down I'm afraid.

I still say thanks to those who did read carefully and gave thoughtful and reasoned responses though.

---

Thank you so much for your input.Always refreshing to have a different point of view. Let's run it up the flag pole and see if anyone salutes.

I can see you are about to take part in some robust discussions, with many free and frank exchanges.

Unfortunately certain members of this community seem intent on making serious questions and honest enquiry worthless.

I have no wish to denigrate those who read my posts carefully and responded accordingly, but I'm afraid my impression is that those people are outnumbered by those who don't.

I shall simply do as advised and carry out my research elsewhere.

[Minimalist]

Your argument runs the assumption [yes, assumption] that these twelve DID know.

Incorrect, Creed. His "argument" ( such as it is) makes the assumption that the "12" were any more real than their fucking godboy.

The purpose of giving "jesus" 12 special friends is to serve as the Greek chorus to this little drama. They are 12 of the dumbest motherfuckers going. Everytime their boy does one of his magic tricks their only function is to say "Oh, wow...HOLY SHIT, JESUS!!!!" You'd think they'd catch on after a while and expect it but they always seem surprised.

I'm afraid idiots like G-C buy the whole story, hook, line and sinker which is not unexpected given the general level of uncritical thinking which is part and parcel of being a "believer" in the first place.