Church excommunicates a girl for aborting her twins but lets her rapist go free

[Minimalist]

G-C's "god" seems so fucking human, doesn't he?

That's what happens when men create gods!

[Shell B]

Aiza, your posts reek of real world ignorance. That is all I have to say on the matter.

[Aiza]

It doesn't? I thought it does. Wikipedia seems to confirm it: "Excommunication at the moment of death results in a person going to hell, the same result as dying in plain mortal sin, because of the necessity of the unity of the ecclesiastical body." Their source for that statement is a council that took place in Florence in 1442. Is that incorrect?

You can still go to Heaven if you have what is known as perfect contrition. And this is a repentance based purely on love of God and hate of all sins--you do not need any priest or bishop, though perfect contrition requires the desire to confess anyway. If they aren't at all contrite, neither perfect nor imperfect, than their salvation would be in jeopardy anyway. Excommunication changes nothing in terms of Heaven or Hell.

To be honest, that strikes me as hair-splitting. You still get a dead fetus at the end of it. And the example you brought up, a hysterectomy, is one that even a layman (in medical terms) knows will result in the death of the fetus. It's one thing to say that undergoing a medical procedure that has a chance of leaving the fetus alive, even if the fetus doesn't come through, is not a sin -- that's sane and reasonable. But saying that a hysterectomy -- which kills the fetus -- is permissible, while a therapeutic abortion -- which kills the fetus -- is not, is ... well, mind-boggling, at least to me.

It is based off the Principle of double effect (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Principle_of_double_effect) , and the difference between causing a bad side effect or doing evil for some good end. Therapeutic abortion fails the first criteria straight away--killing a fetus is not considered a morally good (or neutral) act by Catholics. Removing a diseased uterus (as in indirect abortion) is.

Another example on that wiki page used are deaths due to vaccine side effects. Giving out a vaccine is a good act, and saving lives is a good effect, but as a side effect, some people might die. If you do what you can to make sure the absolute minimum people die and the amount of people who died are less than those saved, its not a mortal sin. However, if we switch it around, and lets say--kidnapping and infecting people with disease so you can study the effects of disease test cures, and save lives. Even if saving lives is a good thing, even if you save more lives than you kill, kidnapping and infecting people with disease is already inherently evil.

I don't think "excommunication" and "sympathy" are mutually exclusive either.

And there is where we are just going to have to agree to disagree, because while some people see an embryo, a blastocyst, a fetus or anything in between as a full human being ... others don't.

Catholics do though and excommunication is a penalty which only matters if you believe in the Church anyway.

[Minimalist]

Catholics do though and excommunication is a penalty which only matters if you believe in the Church anyway.

So not much of a penalty around here, then.

[Shell B]

I might join the church just to be excommunicated. That would be fun.

[Aiza]

So not much of a penalty around here, then.

That would be my point, Minimalist.

[King_Charles]

OK just gonna clear up a few biases in the article linked. It states that the Church defended the decision to excommunicate. Not the case, this is a misunderstanding of Canon Law, which states that a person incurs a latae sententiae (automatic) excommunication when they procure or assist an abortion. The wording of the article is clearly intended to mislead a reader into thinking that specific action was taken against those involved in the abortion, when this was not the case - rather the cardinal commented on whether those involved in the abortion were now under a latae sententiae excommunication, and he replied that under cannon law, yes they were. This is disputable as we shall see...

Another thing: "One of the doctors involved in the abortion, Rivaldo Albuquerque, has raised the prospect of public clashes at his local church, telling Globo, the nation's main TV network, that he would keep going to mass there, regardless of the archbishop's order.", not only is he welcome to attend mass he is still required to attend mass as he is still bound by the rubrics of the Catholic Church, also, as it is a latae sententiae excommunication, the priest does not even have the authority to deny him the sacrament.

Thirdly, if anyone thinks I'm just called this article biased out of my own prejudice... the article is over three years old, and very few of the websites that carry it also carry the follow up to the story, where the the bishops decide the people who were involved in the abortion aren't excommunicated after all: http://www.france24.com/en/20090314-bish...-was-wrong-

In actual fact, the Catholic Church's position on abortion in these matters is a lot more grey that may people on either side of the divide tend to think. Cases such as these are sad, and even under the severe rules of the Catholic Church, while it is always a sin to take human life, the level of culpability under such extreme and horrific circumstances leads to comparably lessening in the Church's view of the crime. At least that is how it is supposed to work when morally indignant Archbishops aren't curb-stopped by journalists looking to brew up a storm.

[Oldandeasilyconfused]

I might join the church just to be excommunicated. That would be fun.

Actually a lot harder than you might think; the church has to be made aware of the transgression.Mostly, they would really rather not know.


Although I have not practised for 45 years,I'm still on their books as far as I know.

In 1987, I had a vasectomy,which is an offence attracting automatic excommunication. (as is a woman getting her tubes tied)

Have never heard a dicky bird from the church.

[Aiza]

Actually a lot harder than you might think; the church has to be made aware of the transgression.Mostly, they would really rather not know.

If you are automatically excommunicated, you are automatically excommunicated. The Church doesn't need to be made aware, only God obviously. The Church only needs to be "made aware" in order to enforce the prohibition on receiving the sacraments.

Vasectomy is not an excommunicable offense (though it is mortal sin). Turning apostate is though, so yes you are excommunicated. There's no reason for the Church to say anything there because its already obvious.

Ferendae sententiae excommunications are the ones where you will "hear a dicky bird" from the Church, those require either special decision from the Bishop or a Vatican Tribunal. An example of this is the group "Call to Action" which was a group of Catholics who demanded an end to priestly celibacy, ordination for women, pro-contraception, etc. And they were excommunicated by the local bishop, and then confirmed by the Vatican.