Let's Start Over, I'm Blackrook and I'm Here to Get Some Answers to Important Questions

[Whatkins]

You say your sister is an open atheist. Are you on speaking terms with her? It would be helpful for you to speak to someone in your immediate orbit, someone you may have unconditional trust for.

Our anonymity (members on a message board) removes a vital part of personal communication. I think directing these questions to someone that is close to you (and, conveniently for your sister's unbelief, may think of things from a different perspective) can be fruitful. Receiving answers from someone in your corner may inspire something more deep-seated than the result of an arrangement of characters on a screen.

(maybe a bit of irony there, but meh)

[Mystic]

Patience in persistence.....You have to keep going.

I believe there is bliss and peace when feeling God's existence perpetually. Of course any amount of describing that feeling will amount to analogies, and analogies will not do justice to this feeling, but the closest analogy that Atheists whom believe in objective morality can be, is exactly that...the closest thing it comes to is how we believe in morality and constantly feel it's existence without inference but in a properly basic manner.

[Blackrook]

Anyway, let's start over.

My name is Blackrook and I'm a Catholic in crisis and I'm here to get some answers to some questions I have.

Catholicism has been a great comfort to me when I had feelings that I didn't want to live, and felt like killing myself.

I felt God's presence, literally reaching out to me and telling me I was loved.

Even now, in my current state of pessimism, I can look forward to something better after my bitter struggle in this world is complete.

What can atheism offer to replace that?

Ironic. My experience was the exact opposite. I saw some of the pain and unfairness and suffering in the world and couldn't understand how such a benevolent, all powerful god could allow it all to happen. That led to doubt which led to a deal I've made to any supernatural being out there: you reach out to me, I'll believe in you. So far, nobody has taken me up on that bargain.

Anyway, if Catholicism brings you comfort, that's all good for you. If it helps you feel better and you don't hurt anyone else because of it, you can believe in whatever you want (even if it is factually incorrect). Just don't try to push it onto me, ok? I'll respect your right to believe as long as you respect my right not to believe.

Right, well I'm not here to try to convert anyone to Catholicism. Catholicism is so complicated and difficult to approach that you almost have to be born into it to fully understand it.

The evangelicals have a big advantage on us because they offer over-simplified solutions to difficult problems. They tell people that they can be "saved" simply by asserting that "Jesus is my personal Lord and savior."

Any way, in RL I get along much better with atheists than I do with evangelicals.

However, on the internet, atheists really let their pants down and show a side of themselves that they would not dare in RL.

What I'm saying is this. Treat me like this is not the interent, but RL, and I will do the same.

I admit I am thin-skinned so I'm just going to put on the ignore list anyone who gets ugly with me. The reason I'm thin-skinned is because a lot of people hurt me when I was a kid and as an adult I have made a promise to myself not ever to tolerate it again. The bullyng didn't stop for me until I became tough and that has carried over into my adult life.

But I will not be mean here if I can help it. That does not mean I'm going to stop making threads that point out the problems with atheism.

My main problem with atheism now is that it offers me absolutely nothing. I am disenchanted with Catholicism right now, but there is absolutely no reason to become an atheist.

First, I can't intellectually accept the notion of a self-generating physical universe.

And second, I can't intellectually accept the notion that life is totally without meaning and efforts to be a good person are in vain because we all end up dead in the ground, with no distinction between the evil and the good.

[Cinjin]

I don't care if we are being rude to you. Big deal, The Atheist Church isn't spending millions of dollars on Atheist conversion programs. You know why? Because those things don't exist. Meanwhile the Catholic church is dying as they spend millions and perhaps billions of dollars.

http://www.churchleaders.com/pastors/pas...erica.html

I'll highlight my favorite part for you.

"A breakdown of overall attendance percentages by church type shows decreases across the board in evangelical, mainline and Catholic churches.

The most significant drop in attendance came at the expense of the Catholic Church, which experienced an 11% decrease in its attendance percentage from 2000 to 2004. Next, and not far behind were mainline churches, which saw a 10% percentage decline. Evangelicals experienced the smallest drop at 1%. "

Meanwhile Atheism has almost doubled in the last 20 years.
http://www.usatoday.com/news/religion/20...ARIS_N.htm

That's without us even caring. So go back to your church and take whatever comfort you want in it. We don't care.

Well, ok, I'm trying to be nice but if you don't want to do that I will put you on ignore and pay attention to the people who want to talk constructively.

I don't think you understand normal banter on an online forum. Well that, or you're what we call a professional troll.
CapnAwesome was NOT rude to you. He's simply stating a fact about how he feels and then backed up his point with some confirmed statistics. No one is required to listen to you whine about your life, and by the way, you have been giving as good as you get in the myriad of baiting threads you've started. You sir are the one who needs to calm down. No insult was issued to you and your resulting case of Butthurt is of your own misguided sense of fair play.

Grow a thicker skin or please leave because we're all very tired of listening to you whine when anyone happens to disagree with you.

[Tiberius]

Anyway, let's start over.

My name is Blackrook and I'm a Catholic in crisis and I'm here to get some answers to some questions I have.

Catholicism has been a great comfort to me when I had feelings that I didn't want to live, and felt like killing myself.

I felt God's presence, literally reaching out to me and telling me I was loved.

Even now, in my current state of pessimism, I can look forward to something better after my bitter struggle in this world is complete.

What can atheism offer to replace that?

If Catholicism works for you, that's great. Atheism isn't designed to replace anything; it's simply a disbelief in God. Atheists deal with such feelings in other ways; we rely on friends and family to feel loved, medication if we are clinically depressed, etc. Of course, theists have these things to rely on as well, but like I said, the point of atheism isn't to have another safety net. The point of atheism is accepting that the evidence for a God existing is non-existent, and we are better of focusing on bettering mankind and learning about the universe we live in than spending time worshiping any kind of God.

I accept that after I die, that's it. I won't get another chance at life, or something better. Instead of making me feel sad, this makes me feel good. I live under the assumption that I only have one life, so I try to make the most of it. Enjoy every moment, because every moment quite literally might be my last.

The only problem I have with religion is when people refuse to just let it be a personal thing, and try to force it on other people, or use it as an excuse to take away rights from others. The world would be a much better place if everyone just let people believe what they wanted, and didn't try to push their own religion on anyone else.

---

I don't care if we are being rude to you. Big deal, The Atheist Church isn't spending millions of dollars on Atheist conversion programs. You know why? Because those things don't exist. Meanwhile the Catholic church is dying as they spend millions and perhaps billions of dollars.

...

That's without us even caring. So go back to your church and take whatever comfort you want in it. We don't care.

So...every Catholic agrees 100% with what the Catholic church does? Grow up. Catholics have more internal disagreements than any other sect on the planet. You cannot blame all Catholics for the actions of the church they follow; nor can you blame them for not leaving.

[Blackrook]

You say your sister is an open atheist. Are you on speaking terms with her? It would be helpful for you to speak to someone in your immediate orbit, someone you may have unconditional trust for.

Our anonymity (members on a message board) removes a vital part of personal communication. I think directing these questions to someone that is close to you (and, conveniently for your sister's unbelief, may think of things from a different perspective) can be fruitful. Receiving answers from someone in your corner may inspire something more deep-seated than the result of an arrangement of characters on a screen.

(maybe a bit of irony there, but meh)

Well, my sister is 18-years-old and I'm not sure if she really knows why she is an atheist.

I would have to talk to someone who has the same age and experience to really have a useful conversation, I think.

I did know an atheist in law school, but he came back to Catholicism, partially because of my influence, and partially because his marriage broke up due to his own infidelity and this really caused him a spiritual crisis.

He told me he was cheating on his bills when he was an atheist, but once he returned to Catholicism he couldn't do it any more.

Don't jump on me for saying this, this is what HE said.

---

Well, ok, I'm trying to be nice but if you don't want to do that I will put you on ignore and pay attention to the people who want to talk constructively.

I don't think you understand normal banter on an online forum. Well that, or you're what we call a professional troll.
CapnAwesome was NOT rude to you. He's simply stating a fact about how he feels and then backed up his point with some confirmed statistics. No one is required to listen to you whine about your life, and by the way, you have been giving as good as you get in the myriad of baiting threads you've started. You sir are the one who needs to calm down. No insult was issued to you and your resulting case of Butthurt is of your own misguided sense of fair play.

Grow a thicker skin or please leave because we're all very tired of listening to you whine when anyone happens to disagree with you.

Well, thank you for your comments. I put CapnAwesome on the ignore list because he said he didn't care if I went back to being a Catholic. Since he has declared that he has no intention to engage me, I am no longer interested in what he has to say.

And I think in a few weeks I'll have this narrowed down to the people I want to talk to and then things will be ok.

[CapnAwesome]

So...every Catholic agrees 100% with what the Catholic church does? Grow up. Catholics have more internal disagreements than any other sect on the planet. You cannot blame all Catholics for the actions of the church they follow; nor can you blame them for not leaving.

What?

I don't know what that has to do with what I posted or am talking about. I'm making a statistical argument about why atheists aren't trying to convert blackrock, nor do they want to. Not even talking about the morality of the Catholic Church. Or is that just your stock answer to any criticism?

[TaraJo]

Right, well I'm not here to try to convert anyone to Catholicism. Catholicism is so complicated and difficult to approach that you almost have to be born into it to fully understand it.

Heh. I went to Catholic church from birth until I was 12 or so. Mass every Sunday and midnight mass the night before Christmas (that was a pain in the ass). Then my dad got a job where he had to work Sundays and that went down the tubes. I did communion, rosaries, Hail Mary's, all that; even spent a year in Catholic school.

However, on the internet, atheists really let their pants down and show a side of themselves that they would not dare in RL.

What I'm saying is this. Treat me like this is not the interent, but RL, and I will do the same.

Well, how I treat people depends on how they treat me. If you're friendly and respectful, I'll be friendly and respectful. If I disagree with you, I'll try to do it respectfully (although I may make a joke here and there). If you're rude and abrasive, I go full-on troll and mock the living shit out of you; and that goes for atheists and Christians both (if we had someone from Atheism+ come in here, they'd probably get trolled like there's no tomorrow).

I admit I am thin-skinned so I'm just going to put on the ignore list anyone who gets ugly with me. The reason I'm thin-skinned is because a lot of people hurt me when I was a kid and as an adult I have made a promise to myself not ever to tolerate it again. The bullyng didn't stop for me until I became tough and that has carried over into my adult life.

Heh. I've had a lot of people mock me over my life, too. Heck, I still have a lot of people mocking me; I have politicians who turn mocking me into a major point of campaigns. I guess I went the opposite direction and instead of getting thin skinned, I got thick skinned and just started laughing at them. I'll admit, Buddhist philosophy has helped me with this one, even if I don't buy into the supernatural mumbo jumbo of it.

But I will not be mean here if I can help it. That does not mean I'm going to stop making threads that point out the problems with atheism.

As long as you can do it respectfully, you're welcome to do that. In fact, I encourage it. I want my beliefs to be held up to question so I can be more confident what I believe is true and can hold up to questions.

My main problem with atheism now is that it offers me absolutely nothing. I am disenchanted with Catholicism right now, but there is absolutely no reason to become an atheist.

And that's cool with me. Searching for answers is an important step that most people don't take. I can applaud you for doing this much.

[Cinjin]

Well, thank you for your comments. I put CapnAwesome on the ignore list because he said he didn't care if I went back to being a Catholic. Since he has declared that he has no intention to engage me, I am no longer interested in what he has to say.

And I think in a few weeks I'll have this narrowed down to the people I want to talk to and then things will be ok.

Just please keep in mind that people disagree.

All of my friends on this site have gotten into heated debates with me ...and these are the people I actually like.

None of them are currently on ignore.

[Whatkins]

He told me he was cheating on his bills when he was an atheist, but once he returned to Catholicism he couldn't do it any more.

Don't jump on me for saying this, this is what HE said.

I think we both know it was not because of his atheism.

On the matter of your sister's inexperience, I still think it could be worth your while to then simply ask her where she derives solace from. She may surprise you.

Other than that, and it has been pointed out, the fact that atheism does not owe one anything is worth stressing. Religion does provide comfort, false as it may be. That much is inescapable and the removal of religion would leave an empirical (and also freeing) absence. The upshot comes down to you and your internal strength and that which you can emulate of others.