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(October 2, 2012 at 12:06 pm)Darkstar Wrote: If they weren't really slaves, then why did god send terrible plagues in order to free them?
Because appearently pharroh got confused.
Quote:It annoys me when some people can't handle not having a big brother watching thm, so they assume that everyone else is like that. On the contrary, god will forgive you for almost anything if you just ask, whereas atheists can't find closure so easily. The short film (posted somewhere on this forum) called "Jesus: Madman or Worse" brings up the fact that being forgiven by god can serve as a replacement to forgiveness from the person you actualy wronged. If you didn't wrong anyone, then there is no need to ask for forgiveness (though many things that hurt no one are still called 'sins')
I don't really watch those films for this very reason: The person who made that film does not have a firm grasp on the fundamentals of Christianity. in that we are not to worship God untill we resolve issues (or atleast do everything we can to resolve an issue.) However the video guy will not be able to defend what he has said.
Quote:I believe that this discussion has already been had earlier (maybe not on this thread). The general conclusion was that 20+ years of religion, and training + a desire to be a pastor weren't worth a mustard seed of faith.
I don't remember this conversation, but the desire to pastor can be selfish in orgin. If one apporaches God for the purpose gain then nothing will be assured. Meaning no one can say God will show up and make the effort needed to break a man of his orginal intentions.
Quote:Well, if god already knows who will 'choose' him, then are you saying that god refuses to reveal himself to people who wouldn't follow anyway?
Yes
Quote:Then what about all of the theistic satanists?
I give up what does it say about theistic satanists?
Quote:By your first sentence, you suggest that god could simply save those who would be faithful if they believed. Perhaps I interpreted you wrong, but it would make the most sense to do it that way, if he won't reveal himself to everyone.
God reveals himself to those who A/S/K, and can save anyone from their disbelief IF the so choose to be saved. The thing is not everyone who goes through the motions of A/S/K chooses to be saved.
Quote:Here's the problem: you assume that god must exist. If someone takes a more neutral stance and A/S/Ks for 20 years and finds nothing, then why is it unreasonable to assume that god does not exist?
truthfully it would depend on the actual effort and the condition of the man's heart. If the effort matches what is outlined in Luke 11 then God promises to show up. However if the man does his own version of A/S/K then nothing is bound to happen, and at that point can assume anything he likes. Because after 20 years He does not yeild himself to the calling and the promise offered God might as well be non-existant as far as he is concerned.
Quote: Those who are desperate to believe will see what they want to, the unbiased will end up not believeing.
indeed. do you assume all who are looking for God are desperate to find Him?
How valid is a dream as a sign from god? How about this:http://atheistforums.org/thread-12234.ht...+in+heaven
I believe these 'experiences' are for the dreamer/see-er. That said the boy's experience is no more valid than my own to anyone who did not experience what he did.
for so much is lost in trying to explain what actually takes place that the core of the experience looses all real value to anyone who does not experience these things for themselves. The only reason i share what i do is because i know there is nothing special about me and if any of you wish to see or experience what i have then all any of you must do is earnestly ask, seek, and Knock as I did and God WILL Show up.
Just be ready for your life to be turned on it's ear. For once something like that happens everything will need to change. Not because 'church' says so. Because you will want to change.
Quote:Exactly, it is no less unbelieveable than anything else in the bible. I know that the story isn't about the logistics, but if the logistics fail, then the story is only a metaphor. The story never said that god gave any aid to Noah other than advance warning, so while the flood was an act of god, the ark and animal collecting were not.
Read the story again. God provided everything (including the animals)
Quote:Oh, and about evolution. It cancels creation because it implies a common ancestor, whereas creation says god made many different animals at the same time in their fully evolved (as to 3000 years ago)forms. (You can ignore this last part if you really want to...)
i guess you did not read the whole thread. well somewhere in the middle of that one I was given a chance to tell you all what i thought this link is to the CF version of the same story. http://www.christianforums.com/t7643307/
October 2, 2012 at 3:23 pm (This post was last modified: October 2, 2012 at 3:59 pm by Darkstar.)
(October 2, 2012 at 2:09 pm)Drich Wrote:
(October 2, 2012 at 12:06 pm)Darkstar Wrote: If they weren't really slaves, then why did god send terrible plagues in order to free them?
Because appearently pharroh got confused.
Or it didn't happen...
Drich Wrote:I don't really watch those films for this very reason: The person who made that film does not have a firm grasp on the fundamentals of Christianity. in that we are not to worship God untill we resolve issues (or atleast do everything we can to resolve an issue.) However the video guy will not be able to defend what he has said.
I know why you might think that the video was biased, but he made some good points that I hadn't thought of.
1. If we love everyone as ourselves, that devalues love.
2. If we turn the other cheek, people can do anything they want without fear of retribution.
3. If we can ask god for forgiveness, this means that we don't need forgiveness from the person we've wronged.
Drich Wrote:I don't remember this conversation, but the desire to pastor can be selfish in orgin. If one apporaches God for the purpose gain then nothing will be assured. Meaning no one can say God will show up and make the effort needed to break a man of his orginal intenion
I highly doubt he was doing it in self-interest.
Drich Wrote:
Quote:Well, if god already knows who will 'choose' him, then are you saying that god refuses to reveal himself to people who wouldn't follow anyway?
Yes
Then why are we even debating this? You seem convinced that I will never find god no matter how hard I try, and if I do I'll reject him.
Drich Wrote:
Quote:Then what about all of the theistic satanists?
I give up what does it say about theistic satanists?
God revealed himself to them knowing that they would ultimately reject him anyway. That contradicts your previous answer (above).
Drich Wrote:God reveals himself to those who A/S/K, and can save anyone from their disbelief IF the so choose to be saved. The thing is not everyone who goes through the motions of A/S/K chooses to be saved.
Why doesn't god just reveal himself and see who will join? Why must he toy with us?
Drich Wrote:truthfully it would depend on the actual effort and the condition of the man's heart. If the effort matches what is outlined in Luke 11 then God promises to show up. However if the man does his own version of A/S/K then nothing is bound to happen, and at that point can assume anything he likes. Because after 20 years He does not yeild himself to the calling and the promise offered God might as well be non-existant as far as he is concerned.
Truthfully it would depend on the actual alignment and the positon of the night's stars. If the stars match what is outlined in my vaguely defined book then the dowsing rod promises to work. However if the stars only are similar then nothing is bound to happen, an at that point we can assume whether there is a well or not. Because after 20 years the stars do not align the promise offered by the dowsing rod might as well be non-existent as far as we are concerned.
The A/S/K does not have very clear instructions. You said earler that god doesn't care if you follow incorrectly due to an honest misinterpretation of the bible. Apparently that rule doesn't apply here. The above statement is as valid as yours.
Drich Wrote:
Quote: Those who are desperate to believe will see what they want to, the unbiased will end up not believeing.
indeed. do you assume all who are looking for God are desperate to find Him?
Well it's either that or burn for eternity... (you just admitted that an unbiased person would not conclude the existence of god from the evidence, you realise, don't you?)
Drich Wrote:I believe these 'experiences' are for the dreamer/see-er. That said the boy's experience is no more valid than my own to anyone who did not experience what he did.
for so much is lost in trying to explain what actually takes place that the core of the experience looses all real value to anyone who does not experience these things for themselves. The only reason i share what i do is because i know there is nothing special about me and if any of you wish to see or experience what i have then all any of you must do is earnestly ask, seek, and Knock as I did and God WILL Show up.
Just be ready for your life to be turned on it's ear. For once something like that happens everything will need to change. Not because 'church' says so. Because you will want to change.
You have a strange dream that is true to you but that everyone else doesn't believe and you still defend it? So you are saying the kid was wrong, or aren't you? (You say it was real to him, but wouldn't that mean not real to you? And then your 'vision' wouldn't be real to him.)
Drich Wrote:
Quote:Exactly, it is no less unbelieveable than anything else in the bible. I know that the story isn't about the logistics, but if the logistics fail, then the story is only a metaphor. The story never said that god gave any aid to Noah other than advance warning, so while the flood was an act of god, the ark and animal collecting were not.
Read the story again. God provided everything (including the animals)
No he didn't. (though he did provide the animals)
But first:
Genesis 6:6
The Lord regretted that he had made human beings on the earth, and his heart was deeply troubled.
How does god regret doing something he already knows the outcome of?
Now, as for how Noah made the ark:
Genesis 6:14-16
So make yourself an ark of cypress[c] wood; make rooms in it and coat it with pitch inside and out. 15 This is how you are to build it: The ark is to be three hundred cubits long, fifty cubits wide and thirty cubits high.[d] 16 Make a roof for it, leaving below the roof an opening one cubit[e] high all around.[f] Put a door in the side of the ark and make lower, middle and upper decks.
God just told him to make it, god did not make it.
Genesis 6:19-22
You are to bring into the ark two of all living creatures, male and female, to keep them alive with you. 20 Two of every kind of bird, of every kind of animal and of every kind of creature that moves along the ground will come to you to be kept alive. 21 You are to take every kind of food that is to be eaten and store it away as food for you and for them.”
22 Noah did everything just as God commanded him.
God provided the animals, but how could they fit in a man-made ark?
Genesis 7:1-5
The Lord then said to Noah, “Go into the ark, you and your whole family, because I have found you righteous in this generation. 2 Take with you seven pairs of every kind of clean animal, a male and its mate, and one pair of every kind of unclean animal, a male and its mate, 3 and also seven pairs of every kind of bird, male and female, to keep their various kinds alive throughout the earth. 4 Seven days from now I will send rain on the earth for forty days and forty nights, and I will wipe from the face of the earth every living creature I have made.”
5 And Noah did all that the Lord commanded him.
More commands; now Noah has a time limit.
Genesis 8:1-4
But God remembered Noah and all the wild animals and the livestock that were with him in the ark, and he sent a wind over the earth, and the waters receded. 2 Now the springs of the deep and the floodgates of the heavens had been closed, and the rain had stopped falling from the sky. 3 The water receded steadily from the earth. At the end of the hundred and fifty days the water had gone down, 4 and on the seventeenth day of the seventh month the ark came to rest on the mountains of Ararat.
How, in the seven months Noah was at sea did:
1. no one starve to death (how could he fit enough food?)
2. no animal kill another?
3. no disease kill anyone?
4. Noah keep the animals under control?
5. the animals not die of inbreeding?
6. the animals all survive in the same climate when there would have been everything from slalmanders to polar bears?
Drich Wrote:i guess you did not read the whole thread. well somewhere in the middle of that one I was given a chance to tell you all what i thought this link is to the CF version of the same story.
I didn't read the whole thread, but I read a good part of what is in your link. However, if your theory is true, it opens up more problems than it fixes. Does this mean that 'monkey man' evolved without god? Then how is god necessary? How does the 'original sin' of two people come to ruin an entirely seperate race? How does god claim dominion over that which he did not create?
John Adams Wrote:The Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion.
Miracles™, Mysterious Ways™. Think that should handle all of the above questions.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
(October 2, 2012 at 3:23 pm)Darkstar Wrote: I know why you might think that the video was biased, but he made some good points that I hadn't thought of.
1. If we love everyone as ourselves, doesn't that devalue love?
Only if you are working with the modern day understanding of the term, and are using yourself as the only source of Love.. that is one of the Fruits of the Holy Spirit. (A greater Capasity and higher quality of love)
Quote:2. If we turn the other cheek, doesn't this mean that people can do anything bad they want without fear of retribution?
for a while. There is a Great Korean Movie that demonstrates this principle in a non religious secular way. "The Way Home." http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0312841/
If you don't mind subtitles this is an AWESOME Movie about a little boy and his grandmother.
Quote:3. If we can ask god for forgiveness, this means that we don't need forgiveness from the person we've wronged.
Not in God's econmy.
Quote:I highly doubt he was doing it in self-interest.
Then you do not know or understand all the 'perks' of being a pastor or preist. The TV is full of men like this who benfit from being a 'pastor.'
Quote:Then why are we even debating this? You seem convinced that I will never find god no matter how hard I try, and if I do I'll reject him.
I am not debating anything really. I am simply correcting your understanding of God and Christianity so you can make an informed desision.
Quote:God revealed himself to them knowing that they would ultimately reject him anyway. That contradicts your previous answer (above).
How, what?
Quote:Why doesn't god just reveal himself and see who will join? Why must he toy with us?
Our 'opting in' is not what God is looking to accomplish here. God has given us this life so we may proove to ourselves where our hearts lie.
Quote:The A/S/K does not have very clear instructions. You said earler that god doesn't care if you follow incorrectly due to an honest misinterpretation of the bible. Apparently that rule doesn't apply here. The above statement is as valid as yours.
Who said that one honestly misinterperted the bible? If you decide to do your own version of A/S/K then that is not the same as A/S/K with all of you mind, heart Spirit and strength, but fall short because you do not understand the principle fully. The difference? the condition of the heart going through the motions of worship. The reason the parable is vague is because God has allowed room for several different expressions of this process. Again what makes one expression of A/S/K valid before God and the very same works performed by another invalid is the condition of the persons heart that has approached God.
Quote:Well it's either that or burn for eternity... (you just admitted that an unbiased person would not conclude the existence of god from the evidence, you realise, don't you?)
even though I was privy to the experience of the 'gates of Hell.' Fear of Hell did not fuel my desire to know God. Just before my judgement I got to look at Christ in the eyes, and felt the oneness or completeness of being in His presents could only bring. It is an indescribable feeling, one of contentment and belonging x1000. True fullfillment. This inspired my search for God. not a frantic fear of hell, but a longing to return Home. In my search for Home It took my time and questioned everything. In doing this over a period of years of A/S/K I found my way. (Not there yet, but am headed in the right direction)
I say that to say those who seek Heaven as a refuge from Hell understand neither. Heaven is not about living in a gated community with gold streets where everyone gets a mansion. Hell is not about fire and brimestone.
Heaven is being in the presents of God and Hell is about being cut off from God. I used to ask this question all of the time: What if for some reason the descriptions for Heaven and Hell were somehow mixed up, and Hell was what we would think of as paradise (but no God) and Heaven was a firey pit that the God of the bible lived in. Would you still want to goto Heaven (The firey pit) and be with God? Again your eternal fate is not about your suroundings, but your proximity to God.
Quote:You have a strange dream that is true to you but that everyone else doesn't believe and you still defend it?
God gave that dream to me for me. It was the 'evidence' i needed it was what I had initaly needed to start my faith/walk with God. It was how I know my masters voice out of all the others calling out to me. The only reason I share it is so that you know that if you honestly approach god He will reach out to you in a way that only matters to you. For everyone elses can and will (by design) be able to dismiss what you life has turn around on.
Quote: So you are saying the kid was wrong, or aren't you?
I am saying what ever the kid saw was between him and God. The fact that his family is doubting their faiths/beliefs simply points to the deep need they have to turn to God to fill in the blanks. Rather they are turning to themselves and turn on the boy because of what he did not see. I feel for the kid for I have seen many wonderful and scarry things thatdo not always coinside with what people believe about their God, and rather address their faith they turn of the messenger.
Quote: (You say it was real to him, but wouldn't that mean not real to you? And then your 'vision' wouldn't be real to him.)
What he see does not need to be real for me. I have all the 'reality' that i could possiable be responsiable for.
Quote:No he didn't. (though he did provide the animals)
Ya-huh.
But first:
Quote:Genesis 6:6
The Lord regretted that he had made human beings on the earth, and his heart was deeply troubled.
How does god regret doing something he already knows the outcome of?
Before i was married I had an on again off again girlfriend. We Loved each other passionatly for about a week or two at a time and then we would be at each others throats, saying all sorts of vile things to each other. then 6 months or so would go by and we'd be back together (even if we were seeing other people.) this went on for 5 years or more. to the point we did not stop our lives to get back together because we both knew how it would end. (in a bitter ugly fight.) Each time was the last time i would swear and 6 months later we'd go out again.. (till she introduced me to one of her childhood friends then it was over for good.)
How does God regret something He did even though He knew how it would turn out? How does man made in the image of God do the same thing?
Quote:Now, as for how Noah made the ark:
Genesis 6:14-16
So make yourself an ark of cypress[c] wood; make rooms in it and coat it with pitch inside and out. 15 This is how you are to build it: The ark is to be three hundred cubits long, fifty cubits wide and thirty cubits high.[d] 16 Make a roof for it, leaving below the roof an opening one cubit[e] high all around.[f] Put a door in the side of the ark and make lower, middle and upper decks.
God just told him to make it, god did not make it.
I didn't say God made the ark. i even went so far as to say it wasn't about the logistics/Noah's efforts that saved creation from the flood... (building the Ark was an attribute of Noah's efforts.)
Genesis 6:19-22
You are to bring into the ark two of all living creatures, male and female, to keep them alive with you. 20 Two of every kind of bird, of every kind of animal and of every kind of creature that moves along the ground will come to you to be kept alive. 21 You are to take every kind of food that is to be eaten and store it away as food for you and for them.”
22 Noah did everything just as God commanded him.
Quote:God provided the animals, but how could they fit in a man-made ark?
Again the Ark was only a manifestation of Noah's Faith. A creation saving faith that God used to save creation Himself. Noah's faith Had him do as he was told. This faith saved creation, not the ark itself. God held noah's efforts together and kept them safe. This is not a story of noah against God. Noah did whay he was told and God saved creatio through his efforts.
Genesis 7:1-5
The Lord then said to Noah, “Go into the ark, you and your whole family, because I have found you righteous in this generation. 2 Take with you seven pairs of every kind of clean animal, a male and its mate, and one pair of every kind of unclean animal, a male and its mate, 3 and also seven pairs of every kind of bird, male and female, to keep their various kinds alive throughout the earth. 4 Seven days from now I will send rain on the earth for forty days and forty nights, and I will wipe from the face of the earth every living creature I have made.”
5 And Noah did all that the Lord commanded him.
Quote:More commands; now Noah has a time limit.
ok?
Genesis 8:1-4
But God remembered Noah and all the wild animals and the livestock that were with him in the ark, and he sent a wind over the earth, and the waters receded. 2 Now the springs of the deep and the floodgates of the heavens had been closed, and the rain had stopped falling from the sky. 3 The water receded steadily from the earth. At the end of the hundred and fifty days the water had gone down, 4 and on the seventeenth day of the seventh month the ark came to rest on the mountains of Ararat.
Quote:How, in the seven months Noah was at sea did:
1. no one starve to death (how could he fit enough food?)
How did christ make enough food to feed 5000 men out of 5 loaves and 2 fish?
Quote:2. no animal kill another?
way "They went two by two into the ark" God gather the animals and sent them into the ark. It was up to God to subdue them.
Quote:3. no disease kill anyone?4. Noah keep the animals under control?
5. the animals not die of inbreeding?
6. the animals all survive in the same climate when there would have been everything from slalmanders to polar bears?
Again this is not a logistics story. the story of the Ark is about the faith required to save creation. I am afraid the "god did it" can be my only answer from this point on. God saved creation through the faith Noah had in building the Ark.
Quote:I didn't read the whole thread, but I read a good part of what is in your link. However, if your theory is true, it opens up more problems than it fixes. Does this mean that 'monkey man' evolved without god?
Nope.
Quote: Then how is god necessary?
He still 'seeded' the whole of creation.
Quote: How does the 'original sin' of two people come to ruin an entirely seperate race?
Same genus Same species makes them the same race. The only difference being one has a soul and the other does not. If man does not have a soul then they were not 'ruined' they were just primal blanks like a dog or horse or whatever else you want to relate to.
Quote:How does god claim dominion over that which he did not create?
God doesn't have to magic something into being inorder to have created it. God is the God of the known universe, it would only stand to reason that God would use the laws and principles we are labling and discovering under the title of 'science' rather than circumvent the very laws He put into place everytime He wants something done..
The Idea that God has to be magic and unexplainable is a 1000 year old understanding of God.
[quote='Drich' pid='344391' dateline='1349211986']
Only if you are working with the modern day understanding of the term, and are using yourself as the only source of Love.. that is one of the Fruits of the Holy Spirit. (A greater Capasity and higher quality of love)[/quote]
I will partially agree with you, but not your reasoning. There are many knids of love; familial live, romantic love, brotherly love, and just plain love for humanity. However, I still think love would be devalued if you loved everyone. Would it mean anything to you if someone told you they loved you, but loved Adolf Hitler equally?
[quote=Drich][quote]2. If we turn the other cheek, doesn't this mean that people can do anything bad they want without fear of retribution?[/quote]
for a while. There is a Great Korean Movie that demonstrates this principle in a non religious secular way. "The Way Home." http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0312841/
If you don't mind subtitles this is an AWESOME Movie about a little boy and his grandmother.[/quote]
I haven't seen the movie, so I don't know if it would answer my question (I know, I could watch it right now, but...). I still think you would get stepped on, but I'm not promoting vigilanteism if that's what you're thinking.
[quote=Drich][quote]3. If we can ask god for forgiveness, this means that we don't need forgiveness from the person we've wronged.[/quote]Not in God's econmy.[/quote]
Then why do we need to confess to god at all? Wouldn't he already know?
[quote=Drich][quote]Then why are we even debating this? You seem convinced that I will never find god no matter how hard I try, and if I do I'll reject him.[/quote]I am not debating anything really. I am simply correcting your understanding of God and Christianity so you can make an informed desision.[/quote]
Well, that's your half of it...
[quote=Drich][quote]Why doesn't god just reveal himself and see who will join? Why must he toy with us?[/quote]Our 'opting in' is not what God is looking to accomplish here. God has given us this life so we may proove to ourselves where our hearts lie.[/quote]
If that is true, then belief and worship shouldn't be necessary. If our heart is in the right place, it shouldn't matter.
[quote=Drich][quote]Who said that one honestly misinterperted the bible? If you decide to do your own version of A/S/K then that is not the same as A/S/K with all of you mind, heart Spirit and strength, but fall short because you do not understand the principle fully. The difference? the condition of the heart going through the motions of worship. The reason the parable is vague is because God has allowed room for several different expressions of this process. Again what makes one expression of A/S/K valid before God and the very same works performed by another invalid is the condition of the persons heart that has approached God.[/quote]
If god has allowed several different expressions of this process, then how can someone do it 'wrong'? If they truly wish to meet god, and there are 'several different expressions of this process' then is the only answer to someone who failed to see god 'try harder'? Keep in mind, as a skeptic, I'm not going to have unlimited faith in something for which there is no concrete evidence.
[quote=Drich] even though I was privy to the experience of the 'gates of Hell.' Fear of Hell did not fuel my desire to know God. Just before my judgement I got to look at Christ in the eyes, and felt the oneness or completeness of being in His presents could only bring. It is an indescribable feeling, one of contentment and belonging x1000. True fullfillment. This inspired my search for God. not a frantic fear of hell, but a longing to return Home. In my search for Home It took my time and questioned everything. In doing this over a period of years of A/S/K I found my way. (Not there yet, but am headed in the right direction)[/quote]
The hell thing was just a general statement. You felt empty and needed something to fill the void: god. The thing is, A/S/K sometimes creates the illusion of actually working because if people try hard enough and for long enough, they can will themselves into believing almost anything. A dream or vague emotion that would be written off as completely normal is then interpreted as a sign from god. However, an unambiguous sign (outside a dream, and dreams to to contain images and ideas that are on one's own mind) will never manifest.
[quote=Drich]I say that to say those who seek Heaven as a refuge from Hell understand neither. Heaven is not about living in a gated community with gold streets where everyone gets a mansion. Hell is not about fire and brimestone.[/quote]
I agree with the first, but not necessarily the second.
[quote=Drich][quote]You have a strange dream that is true to you but that everyone else doesn't believe and you still defend it?[/quote]God gave that dream to me for me. It was the 'evidence' i needed it was what I had initaly needed to start my faith/walk with God. It was how I know my masters voice out of all the others calling out to me. The only reason I share it is so that you know that if you honestly approach god He will reach out to you in a way that only matters to you. For everyone elses can and will (by design) be able to dismiss what you life has turn around on.[/quote]
First, you say god gave you the dream but you have no way of knowing this is true (you even put evidence is quotation marks). If you are looking for a god, any god, regardless of existnence or no, you will eventually find something you can call a sign, even if other, more plausible, explanations are available.
[quote=Drich][quote] So you are saying the kid was wrong, or aren't you?[/quote]I am saying what ever the kid saw was between him and God. The fact that his family is doubting their faiths/beliefs simply points to the deep need they have to turn to God to fill in the blanks. Rather they are turning to themselves and turn on the boy because of what he did not see. I feel for the kid for I have seen many wonderful and scarry things thatdo not always coinside with what people believe about their God, and rather address their faith they turn of the messenger. [/quote]
So you seem confident that the kid got an actual message from god, then. So tell me this: every year there are people who kill someone and claim that god told them it had to be done. They are disbelieved only on the account that their act was violent. If they claimed that god had told them to do something else, they would have been believed. How do you know that they really didn't take out one of satan's minions for god? I bet you'll say they didn't, but then why is their story not believeable? They have just as much evidence as you do.
[quote=Drich][quote]Genesis 6:6 [hide]The Lord regretted that he had made human beings on the earth, and his heart was deeply troubled.
How does god regret doing something he already knows the outcome of?[/quote]Before i was married I had an on again off again girlfriend. We Loved each other passionatly for about a week or two at a time and then we would be at each others throats, saying all sorts of vile things to each other. then 6 months or so would go by and we'd be back together (even if we were seeing other people.) this went on for 5 years or more. to the point we did not stop our lives to get back together because we both knew how it would end. (in a bitter ugly fight.) Each time was the last time i would swear and 6 months later we'd go out again.. (till she introduced me to one of her childhood friends then it was over for good.)
How does God regret something He did even though He knew how it would turn out? How does man made in the image of God do the same thing?[/quote][/hide]
There was a thread on which of god's attributes were actually put into humans, and which weren't. I don't believe that this would fall into that category. http://atheistforums.org/thread-15028.ht...e+a+retard
Also, you may have had an inkling that it would end badly, but you didn't know it for a fact. Creating humans only to kill 99.9%+ of them is on a whole other level from what you said.
[quote=Drich][quote]God just told him to make it, god did not make it.[/quote]I didn't say God made the ark. i even went so far as to say it wasn't about the logistics/Noah's efforts that saved creation from the flood... (building the Ark was an attribute of Noah's efforts.)
[/quote]
How is that possible...
[quote=Drich][quote]God provided the animals, but how could they fit in a man-made ark?[/quote]Again the Ark was only a manifestation of Noah's Faith. A creation saving faith that God used to save creation Himself. Noah's faith Had him do as he was told. This faith saved creation, not the ark itself. God held noah's efforts together and kept them safe. This is not a story of noah against God. Noah did whay he was told and God saved creatio through his efforts.[/quote]
The ark was only a manifestation of Noah's faith. Let's let that sink in for a moment... So...the ark was...a metaphor for Noah's faith... It does not say any of these things in the bible, so I'm assuming that this is just your own interpretation, then.
[quote=Drich][quote]How, in the seven months Noah was at sea did:
1. no one starve to death (how could he fit enough food?)[/quote]How did christ make enough food to feed 5000 men out of 5 loaves and 2 fish?[/quote]
Noah isn't christ. Christ is god in human form; Noah had no special powers to speak of, nor did god perform any miracles in his name like he did for Moses.
[quote=Drich][quote]2. no animal kill another?[/quote] way "They went two by two into the ark" God gather the animals and sent them into the ark. It was up to God to subdue them.[/quote]
Fair enough.
[quote=Drich][quote]3. no disease kill anyone?4. Noah keep the animals under control?
5. the animals not die of inbreeding?
6. the animals all survive in the same climate when there would have been everything from slalmanders to polar bears?[/quote]Again this is not a logistics story. the story of the Ark is about the faith required to save creation. I am afraid the "god did it" can be my only answer from this point on. God saved creation through the faith Noah had in building the Ark.[/quote]
(bolding added)
So there are two possible outcomes:
1. Goddidit (even though it doesn't say he did anywhere in the text), or 2. The story is only a metaphor (supported by the segement I bolded)
[quote=Drich][quote]I didn't read the whole thread, but I read a good part of what is in your link. However, if your theory is true, it opens up more problems than it fixes. Does this mean that 'monkey man' evolved without god?[/quote]Nope.
[quote=Drich][quote] Then how is god necessary?[/quote]He still 'seeded' the whole of creation.[/quote]
It doesn't say that in the bible, does it?
[quote=Drich][quote] How does the 'original sin' of two people come to ruin an entirely seperate race? [/quote]Same genus Same species makes them the same race. The only difference being one has a soul and the other does not. If man does not have a soul then they were not 'ruined' they were just primal blanks like a dog or horse or whatever else you want to relate to. [/quote]
So...they have no contact, but god blames the whole genus for it? How do we know who has a soul and who doesn't? If two people with a 'soul gene' are introduced into a population of 1,000,000+, that gene is a goner, unless it provides a marked survival advantage. I presume that it isn't genetic, though. In which case there is no reason it would be passed down hereditarily.
[quote=Drich][quote]God doesn't have to magic something into being inorder to have created it. God is the God of the known universe, it would only stand to reason that God would use the laws and principles we are labling and discovering under the title of 'science' rather than circumvent the very laws He put into place everytime He wants something done..
The Idea that God has to be magic and unexplainable is a 1000 year old understanding of God.
[/quote]
Natural selection is just that; natural, no god required. If you make some bacteria, throw them into a sustainable environment and return in 4 billion years to find them evolved, do you own the new creatures? Did you 'create' them, or just put down a spark. Heck, by that logic we could just say that god did abiogenesis. In that case, we could literally use anything as evidence for god. Even if this were true (which I don't believe it is), that would never pinpoint Yahweh as the one true god.
John Adams Wrote:The Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion.
going a way for a few day but will answer a few of these. I will try and answer the rest if I have time/Lord willing.
[quote='Darkstar' pid='344472' dateline='1349223270']
[hide][quote='Drich' pid='344391' dateline='1349211986']
[quote]I haven't seen the movie, so I don't know if it would answer my question (I know, I could watch it right now, but...). I still think you would get stepped on, but I'm not promoting vigilanteism if that's what you're thinking.[/quote] If you get time I think it can been see on netflix.
[quote]Then why do we need to confess to god at all? Wouldn't he already know?[/quote]Religion says that. The bible say we must repent from our sins. To repent is not to 'confess' or even stop sinning.. It is the turning from a want to sin or desire to not sin. That and forgiving others are the two big changes we have to strive to make in our lives. that means we must openly and honestly identify all sins in our lives, so we can turn from them.
[quote]If that is true, then belief and worship shouldn't be necessary. If our heart is in the right place, it shouldn't matter.[/quote]If your heart is truly in the right place you can not help But to believe and worship (Speaking from experience) Your heart will learn to ache to worship and show your belief.
[quote]The hell thing was just a general statement. You felt empty and needed something to fill the void: god. The thing is, A/S/K sometimes creates the illusion of actually working because if people try hard enough and for long enough, they can will themselves into believing almost anything. [/quote]Only for a time.
[quote]A dream or vague emotion that would be written off as completely normal is then interpreted as a sign from god. However, an unambiguous sign (outside a dream, and dreams to to contain images and ideas that are on one's own mind) will never manifest.[/quote]
Messenger/Message is a thread i did sharing one such 'unambiguous sign." http://atheistforums.org/thread-13378.html
[quote]First, you say god gave you the dream but you have no way of knowing this is true[/quote]The reason I knew this was not from me is because there were aspects of Hell and the final judgement being protrayed that I knew nothing about or simply did not understand till I did more reasearch.
[quote] (you even put evidence is quotation marks). If you are looking for a god, any god, regardless of existnence or no, you will eventually find something you can call a sign, even if other, more plausible, explanations are available.[/quote] the reason I quoted 'evidence' is because it was not meant to be generally accepted as 'evidence.' this was my 'evidence.'
[quote]So you seem confident that the kid got an actual message from god, then. So tell me this: every year there are people who kill someone and claim that god told them it had to be done. They are disbelieved only on the account that their act was violent. If they claimed that god had told them to do something else, they would have been believed. How do you know that they really didn't take out one of satan's minions for god? I bet you'll say they didn't, but then why is their story not believeable? They have just as much evidence as you do.[/quote]Because the message they Got does not coinside with what the Holy Spirit has revealed in the bible. We are told that God will not contradict Himself by giving you a command that countermands scripture. there are many deceiving spirits who claim to be God. (That is how many 'prophets' believe they have talked with God.) When I took my experience and looked up someof the things i experienced they were confirmed by the bible, and did not contradict what was written.
[quote]There was a thread on which of god's attributes were actually put into humans, and which weren't. I don't believe that this would fall into that category. http://atheistforums.org/thread-15028.ht...e+a+retard
Also, you may have had an inkling that it would end badly, but you didn't know it for a fact.[/quote]after 5 years of this you know. without doubt.
[quote]Creating humans only to kill 99.9%+ of them is on a whole other level from what you said.[/quote]was it only humans God killed?
October 2, 2012 at 11:02 pm (This post was last modified: October 2, 2012 at 11:08 pm by Darkstar.)
(October 2, 2012 at 10:26 pm)Drich Wrote:
Quote:Then why do we need to confess to god at all? Wouldn't he already know?
Religion says that. The bible say we must repent from our sins. To repent is not to 'confess' or even stop sinning.. It is the turning from a want to sin or desire to not sin. That and forgiving others are the two big changes we have to strive to make in our lives. that means we must openly and honestly identify all sins in our lives, so we can turn from them.
We wouldn't need to know of god to feel guilt and turn away from immoral acts. If we did, it wouldn't really be sincere.
Drich Wrote:
Quote:If that is true, then belief and worship shouldn't be necessary. If our heart is in the right place, it shouldn't matter.
If your heart is truly in the right place you can not help But to believe and worship (Speaking from experience) Your heart will learn to ache to worship and show your belief.
Then I guess I'm a terrible person because I don't believe. Unless by 'in the right place' you mean possesing a strong confirmation bias for god, rather than being a good person.
Drich Wrote:
Quote:The hell thing was just a general statement. You felt empty and needed something to fill the void: god. The thing is, A/S/K sometimes creates the illusion of actually working because if people try hard enough and for long enough, they can will themselves into believing almost anything.
Only for a time.
Confirmation bias can perpetuate it, especially because god works in 'mysterious' ways, so you don't really need something specific for it to be a sign.
Drich Wrote:
Quote:A dream or vague emotion that would be written off as completely normal is then interpreted as a sign from god. However, an unambiguous sign (outside a dream, and dreams to to contain images and ideas that are on one's own mind) will never manifest.
Messenger/Message is a thread i did sharing one such 'unambiguous sign."
Now, I'm not going to accuse you of lying, but there are still some things from that thread that are worth noting. Not only were the predictions given fairly vague, but they could have become self-fulfilling prophecies (ex. "He told me of comming prosperity, but not for my benfit so I could live in luxuary, but so I could help others.(Which I am doing)" could be that you are giving money because he said you would, or that he was simply offering advice). Memory is a funny thing, you could have accidentally filled in his predictions with things that had already happened. Also, why would he introduce himself as a psychic instead of an angel? If the event seems real to you, you probably think I'm just being too suspicious, but if I told you a similar story, but replaced the word god with the word satan, you might understand where I'm coming from. Also, why is it that individual people say that they've had experiences with god that bettered their lives, when all of the starving children in Africa are completely ignored?
Drich Wrote:
Quote:So you seem confident that the kid got an actual message from god, then. So tell me this: every year there are people who kill someone and claim that god told them it had to be done. They are disbelieved only on the account that their act was violent. If they claimed that god had told them to do something else, they would have been believed. How do you know that they really didn't take out one of satan's minions for god? I bet you'll say they didn't, but then why is their story not believeable? They have just as much evidence as you do.
Because the message they Got does not coinside with what the Holy Spirit has revealed in the bible. We are told that God will not contradict Himself by giving you a command that countermands scripture. there are many deceiving spirits who claim to be God. (That is how many 'prophets' believe they have talked with God.) When I took my experience and looked up someof the things i experienced they were confirmed by the bible, and did not contradict what was written.
God orders several genocides in the bible, so that isn't really a contradiction.
Drich Wrote:
Quote:There was a thread on which of god's attributes were actually put into humans, and which weren't. I don't believe that this would fall into that category. http://atheistforums.org/thread-15028.ht...e+a+retard
Also, you may have had an inkling that it would end badly, but you didn't know it for a fact.
after 5 years of this you know. without doubt.
Oh.
But; does god make mistakes? If yes, then he isn't perfect. If no, then why was he disappointed if he planned it all along?
Drich Wrote:
Quote:Creating humans only to kill 99.9%+ of them is on a whole other level from what you said.
was it only humans God killed?
Well...the animals were supposed to be saved. I guess he killed some plants...
John Adams Wrote:The Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion.
(October 2, 2012 at 11:02 pm)Darkstar Wrote: We wouldn't need to know of god to feel guilt and turn away from immoral acts. If we did, it wouldn't really be sincere.
What about white lies? Gossip, anger towards another? Are these immoral you would naturally turn from? To God these sins (that our morality as trivalized are the greatest sins we can commit according to God.)
Morality is a crap standard that gives one a false sense of righteousness. That is why Christ identified the 'morality' of the preists of his day as "Self Righteousness." So everytime you wish to use you 'motality' as a standard to look down on or superceed the expressed will of God substitute that word 'morality' with self righteousness.
Quote:Then I guess I'm a terrible person because I don't believe.
congats! admitting that you are a 'terriable person is a step in the right direction of repentance.
"We" are all terriable people.
Quote:Confirmation bias can perpetuate it, especially because god works in 'mysterious' ways, so you don't really need something specific for it to be a sign.
"God working in mysterious ways' is an answer given to the young in the faith. To one who has trouble unerdstanding that one is not in the business of trading 'good deeds' for favors with God. Meaning if one lives a 'good life' he is not assured of always being provided what he wants or the life he wants to live. If this person's minds set can not comperhend a God beyond the one who trades 'good deeds' for the good life then "God works in mysterious ways" is all the answer that person will be able to comperhend. If you want an answer beyond that one then learn to sek God on His terms and stop trying to make God fit your understanding of Him.
Quote:Now, I'm not going to accuse you of lying, but there are still some things from that thread that are worth noting.
I have been told when someone says something, then says "But" then everything before the "but" is null and void.
Quote: Not only were the predictions given fairly vague, but they could have become self-fulfilling prophecies (ex. "He told me of comming prosperity, but not for my benfit so I could live in luxuary, but so I could help others.(Which I am doing)" could be that you are giving money because he said you would, or that he was simply offering advice).
I have been literally given a winning lottery tickets worth of money. from a man I had only met maybe once or twice before and only in passing, and I could have spent it any way I wish. The prophecy however told me how to spend it, and I did/am doing. i did what I was told, and God is being faithful to the promise I have been given. For i am on the brink of 10x's what I had orginally been given.
Quote:Memory is a funny thing, you could have accidentally filled in his predictions with things that had already happened.
Ah, no. I was driving a 1964 Ranchero/Falcon (that i paid 500 dollars for) with seats that were not attached to the car and a plywood floors, with no heat or defrost, (Which was very memoriable because of how cold it was that day/evening) oh and I was living with my Father. so no confusion there about my finances.
Quote:Also, why would he introduce himself as a psychic instead of an angel?
He didn't. He said "I am what you might call a psychic."
If I was making this up don't you think after 15 years of telling this story I know enough to cut that bit out? I am being faithful to what has been said and faithful to the experience. He used the word Psychic but did not fully commit to it. I can only assume the reason he did this was to allow those of you who do not want to believe an out or a way to dismiss the account without forcing to accept or completely lie to yourself to overcome these events.
As a side note this also helped me develop the understanding as to the reason why does not provide absolute proof for everyone.
Quote:If the event seems real to you, you probably think I'm just being too suspicious, but if I told you a similar story, but replaced the word god with the word satan, you might understand where I'm coming from. Also, why is it that individual people say that they've had experiences with god that bettered their lives, when all of the starving children in Africa are completely ignored?
How have they been ignored? There are many thousands of missionaries that dedicate their lives to Africa each year.. Or do you mean why God hasn't forced you or those like you to do something about the need you see in Africa?
Quote:God orders several genocides in the bible, so that isn't really a contradiction.
Noope
Quote:But; does god make mistakes? If yes, then he isn't perfect. If no, then why was he disappointed if he planned it all along?
Maybe when you gain a few more life experiences you will understand. There is nothing else I care to share that can help me communicate this to you. all I can say, is that even if you know how something will work out it is still very possiable to be disappointed with the outcome.
(October 6, 2012 at 3:14 pm)Drich Wrote: What about white lies? Gossip, anger towards another? Are these immoral you would naturally turn from? To God these sins (that our morality as trivalized are the greatest sins we can commit according to God.)
Morality is a crap standard that gives one a false sense of righteousness. That is why Christ identified the 'morality' of the preists of his day as "Self Righteousness." So everytime you wish to use you 'motality' as a standard to look down on or superceed the expressed will of God substitute that word 'morality' with self righteousness.
(bolding added)
Well...thou shalt not lie is not a commandment. Gossip can hurt people and mere anger, if it is never acted upon, is only hurtful to the person holding it. Also, are white lies immoral if they are told to emotionally protect someone? It is debatable. As for the bolded, you still have no evidence to support that claim. Just because people are imperfect doesn't make their morals a 'crap standard'. Maybe people are deviating from morality, has that not ever occured to you?
Drich Wrote:
Quote:Then I guess I'm a terrible person because I don't believe.
congats! admitting that you are a 'terriable person is a step in the right direction of repentance.
"We" are all terriable people.
That was obvious sarcasm. If everyone thinks of themself as a terrible person...well it's obvious why that would have negative effects. Think of The Scarlet Letter. Would you really want to live in a society like that? Is that society really more moral than ours? (Rhetorical:No it is not)
Drich Wrote:"God working in mysterious ways' is an answer given to the young in the faith.
Drich Wrote:To one who has trouble unerdstanding that one is not in the business of trading 'good deeds' for favors with God.
Agreed, one should do what is right on principle, not just because god says so. If god orders something immoral, you need to have the courage to resist it. After all, how do we know that he doesn't deliberately do bad things to see who is brave enough to stand up for what is right?
Drich Wrote:Meaning if one lives a 'good life' he is not assured of always being provided what he wants or the life he wants to live. If this person's minds set can not comperhend a God beyond the one who trades 'good deeds' for the good life then "God works in mysterious ways" is all the answer that person will be able to comperhend. If you want an answer beyond that one then learn to sek God on His terms and stop trying to make God fit your understanding of Him.
Drich Wrote:I have been literally given a winning lottery tickets worth of money. from a man I had only met maybe once or twice before and only in passing, and I could have spent it any way I wish. The prophecy however told me how to spend it, and I did/am doing. i did what I was told, and God is being faithful to the promise I have been given. For i am on the brink of 10x's what I had orginally been given.
Define 'given'. If the guy gave you lottery numbers and those won, that would be one thing. However, if you have acquired wealth through other methods, then I don't know if that proves anything.
Drich Wrote:
Quote:Memory is a funny thing, you could have accidentally filled in his predictions with things that had already happened.
Ah, no. I was driving a 1964 Ranchero/Falcon (that i paid 500 dollars for) with seats that were not attached to the car and a plywood floors, with no heat or defrost, (Which was very memoriable because of how cold it was that day/evening) oh and I was living with my Father. so no confusion there about my finances.
Fianances? I meant that you could have misremembered him as predicing something that later happened that he didn't actually mention. Also, the details about the car are not exclusive to that memory, so of course you would rememer them if you knew what car you owned at the time.
Drich Wrote:If I was making this up don't you think after 15 years of telling this story I know enough to cut that bit out? I am being faithful to what has been said and faithful to the experience. He used the word Psychic but did not fully commit to it. I can only assume the reason he did this was to allow those of you who do not want to believe an out or a way to dismiss the account without forcing to accept or completely lie to yourself to overcome these events.
As a side note this also helped me develop the understanding as to the reason why does not provide absolute proof for everyone.
Well, that leaves us with two options. Either you really are lying and just admitted you made it ambiguous to be more believable (not an accusation, just an observation of a possibility) or you misremembered. Again, why does god value belief without proof over worship? He has no reason not to give proof of his existence.
Drich Wrote:How have they been ignored? There are many thousands of missionaries that dedicate their lives to Africa each year.. Or do you mean why God hasn't forced you or those like you to do something about the need you see in Africa?
Missionaries go to Africa...so does the peace corps, and the peace corps doesn't say god told them to. (I don't even know if many missionaries say that) The fact is, the problem is still there. Jesus fed the hungry, but god is relatively apathetic about the Africans.
Drich Wrote:
Quote:God orders several genocides in the bible, so that isn't really a contradiction.
Noope
No as in, yes it isn't a cotradiciton, or no as in he didn't order genocide? Genocide in the bible If you don't believe the site, then look up those passages referenced in an actual bible.
Drich Wrote:Maybe when you gain a few more life experiences you will understand. There is nothing else I care to share that can help me communicate this to you. all I can say, is that even if you know how something will work out it is still very possiable to be disappointed with the outcome.
So, if I understand you correctly, god knew that the path he was on would end up in dissapointment...but he didn't change anything. And I am supposed to assume that he had a good reason for going against his own will?
About the bolded; I think there is some paradox about his omnipotence regarding that, but I can't remeber what it is. Does anyone else know?
John Adams Wrote:The Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion.
Ah, no. I was driving a 1964 Ranchero/Falcon (that i paid 500 dollars for) with seats that were not attached to the car and a plywood floors, with no heat or defrost, (Which was very memoriable because of how cold it was that day/evening) oh and I was living with my Father. so no confusion there about my finances.