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RE: How did the writings of the NT come to be?
October 23, 2012 at 9:33 pm
(This post was last modified: October 23, 2012 at 9:45 pm by Minimalist.)
Quote:We know that the Christians believed those things.
The issue is....WHEN did they believe them?
Justin Martyr tells the story c 160 AD in his First Apology to Antoninus Pius but "Paul" never mentions never mentions the Lord's Prayer, the Transfiguration, the Sermon on the Mount, Mary, Joseph, Bethlehem, the 3 Wise Men,Herod's Slaughter of the Innocents, Galilee, Nazareth, Pontius Pilate, Judas Iscariot, Gethsemane, or Calvary.
Of course, Justin never heard of "Paul" either. It is a puzzle. The one thing that is certain is that the later story cobbled together by the church as "orthodoxy" is horseshit.
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RE: How did the writings of the NT come to be?
October 23, 2012 at 10:08 pm
(This post was last modified: October 23, 2012 at 10:09 pm by FallentoReason.)
(October 23, 2012 at 9:33 pm)Minimalist Wrote: Quote:We know that the Christians believed those things.
The issue is....WHEN did they believe them?
Justin Martyr tells the story c 160 AD in his First Apology to Antoninus Pius but "Paul" never mentions never mentions the Lord's Prayer, the Transfiguration, the Sermon on the Mount, Mary, Joseph, Bethlehem, the 3 Wise Men,Herod's Slaughter of the Innocents, Galilee, Nazareth, Pontius Pilate, Judas Iscariot, Gethsemane, or Calvary.
Of course, Justin never heard of "Paul" either. It is a puzzle. The one thing that is certain is that the later story cobbled together by the church as "orthodoxy" is horseshit.
Agreed. Paul alone does more damage than good, and Justin was by far the worst apologist in history. He points out exactly what shouldn't be said, namely, that the pagan religions predate Christianity on many different things.
I guess with Tacitus it doesn't matter what he said or was made out to be saying because, like all other "Jesus references", he wasn't a contemporary and his guess is as good as anyone's
"It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it" ~ Aristotle
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RE: How did the writings of the NT come to be?
October 23, 2012 at 10:37 pm
It's more that it is just another example of xtians trying to shoehorn their godboy into the history books.
The Testimonium Flavianum is another superb example.
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RE: How did the writings of the NT come to be?
October 23, 2012 at 11:03 pm
(October 23, 2012 at 8:47 pm)FallentoReason Wrote: What's so great about Tacitus' account? We know that the Christians believed those things. That's what Tacitus is doing; simply voicing the beliefs of the Christians at the time. He wasn't a contemporary to the events so that's all he can really do.
Spot on. Xtians exist; that's not in dispute. Xtians exist, therefore Jesus, is just stupid. Similarly, the existence of children who write letters every year and posting them up the chimney must prove that Santa is real. Which he is, of course.
At the age of five, Skagra decided emphatically that God did not exist. This revelation tends to make most people in the universe who have it react in one of two ways - with relief or with despair. Only Skagra responded to it by thinking, 'Wait a second. That means there's a situation vacant.'
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RE: How did the writings of the NT come to be?
October 23, 2012 at 11:05 pm
(October 23, 2012 at 10:37 pm)Minimalist Wrote: It's more that it is just another example of xtians trying to shoehorn their godboy into the history books.
The Testimonium Flavianum is another superb example.
Yeah, true that!
"It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it" ~ Aristotle
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RE: How did the writings of the NT come to be?
October 24, 2012 at 8:09 am
(October 23, 2012 at 8:47 pm)FallentoReason Wrote: What's so great about Tacitus' account? We know that the Christians believed those things. That's what Tacitus is doing; simply voicing the beliefs of the Christians at the time. He wasn't a contemporary to the events so that's all he can really do. Good point - if he wasn't around at the time of the events, he's not an example of the Romans recording foreign religions at the time of Christ.
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RE: How did the writings of the NT come to be?
October 24, 2012 at 10:04 am
(This post was last modified: October 24, 2012 at 10:06 am by The Grand Nudger.)
Oh, stop wriggling around, there is no "time of christ" to begin with. Whats this bullshit anyway? You ask for something, claiming that you don't think it's there, when it's handed to you it's time to modify the garbage? 
Whatever it takes for you to make it okay man...lol.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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RE: How did the writings of the NT come to be?
October 24, 2012 at 10:16 am
It's not my fault that certain atheist claims haven't been supported.
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RE: How did the writings of the NT come to be?
October 24, 2012 at 10:19 am
(This post was last modified: October 24, 2012 at 10:21 am by The Grand Nudger.)
No, that wouldn't be your fault, but is your choice to ignore that they have been.
(Why should anyone continue this conversation with you, given the way you've handled it thusfar John? )
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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RE: How did the writings of the NT come to be?
October 24, 2012 at 10:28 am
(October 24, 2012 at 10:19 am)Rhythm Wrote: No, that wouldn't be your fault, but is your choice to ignore that they have been.
(Why should anyone continue this conversation with you, given the way you've handled it thusfar John? ) First, feel free to bow out. I get the feeling that, while you're aproaching 11,000 total posts, you're approaching 11 quality posts.
Second, perhaps you don't understand the flow of this line of the discussion. It goes like this:
A: There's no contemporaneous Roman documentation of the claims of Christianity.
C: This is an argument from silience. To be valid, you need to support that we should reasonably expect to find contemporaneous Roman documentation of the claims of Christianity.
A: OK, here's Tacitus talking about Druids.
C: OK, here's Tacitus talking about Jesus.
A: Tacitus wasn't a contemporary of Jesus, so that's not contemporaneous Roman documentation of the claims of Christianity.
C: If Tacitus wasn't a contemporary of Jesus, then you still haven't given any support to the claim that we should reasonably expect to find contemporaneous Roman documentation of the claims of Christianity.
A: You're a moron, why do we even bother talking to you!!!
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