Why did God do Satan’s bidding?

[Greatest I am]

Picture offered without any need for comment.

we've went over this pic before.

Before July 1941 Hitler was a strong supporter of God (and NOT of the Church.)

But after July 1 1941 a letter was issued to all top Nazi officals that they would have to denounce God and swear aliegance to hitler first.
http://www.calvin.edu/academic/cas/gpa/koehler.htm

The only reason one would not 'need to comment on this pic" is because that person was ignorant of history OR He wishes others were.

Do you know what was written on the German soldiers belt buckle in WWII?

Gott mit uns (meaning God with us).

Regards
DL

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Why did God do Satan’s bidding?

Because in the end it served God to do so.

So doing evil serves God's purposes. OK.

Scriptures tell us to be as perfect as God. We too then can do evil with impunity and God cannot punish us for it. Sweet.

Christians are too religious to follow their moral sense and spiritual natures. Religion is directing your morals instead of your God given intelligence, moral sense and spiritual nature. I urge you to follow the teachings of spiritual teachers like Bishop Spong. A moral man.

If morality is an ever changing standard, then for those who follow their morals are doing what exactly? They are turning themselves over to the cultures sense of right and wrong. Which is fine and good if the culture by the measure of whatever is currently in vogue. but what if the culture is into killing Jews? then what? Do you not think that inorder to have a whole soceity turn and try and kill a whole race of people that their 'morality' had to change first?

I don't know. Perhaps you can tell us. Did God's morality change when he used genocide against us in Noah's day?

And what did he have against all those innocent animals?

Again without any absolutes, following one's 'moral sense or spiritual natures" is the same as "Just following Orders." Because our morality is defined by our cultures.

If it is then using genocide against it is rather counter productive is it not?

It is so we would not do it.

If morals comes from culture as you say, and I agree with that, then God cannot have morals because he has no culture. Right?

Galileo -- "I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use."

Reason and intellects are nothing more than tools. Like any tool they can be used in a constructive manner or a destructive manner. Let's say you have a hammer and with that Hammer you built a home for your family. Now what if someone took the exact same hammer and tore that Home down? It is the Hammer responsiable for how it was used? Is it the fault of the Hammer that your home was destroyed?

You are correct in that the intelligence behind it is what is responsible and in the story of Job, all the intelligence that exists was created by God in your doctrine so God is responsible.

In turn our intelects and ablity to reason is subject to our will. God is not asking you to suspend anything. Matter of fact He is asking that we take the tools He has lent us and build a strong relationship with him.

How can a relationship be built when your God is hiding somewhere?
Can you have a relationship with an absentee God?

Job 2; 3 And the LORD said unto Satan: 'Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a whole-hearted and an upright man, one that feareth God, and shunneth evil? and he still holdeth fast his integrity, although thou didst move Me against him, to destroy him without cause.

Fellow believers and Gnostic Christians like me; if you are a literalist or fundamental Christian or idol worship the God you have found in the Bible, I urge you to think of the story of Job and note from the wording that God is being manipulated by Satan. Satan bid God to move against Job without just cause and God did just that. God let Satan manipulate him.

..Or was God manipulating satan? Let look at the WHOLE Passage. start by reading Chapter 1 where God introduces Job to Satan.
If not for this introduction Satan would have not 'considered Job'

This whiny complaint from God "although thou didst move Me against him, to destroy him without cause." says that Satan manipulated God. That or it is just God admitting that he punish Job without cause under his own guidance. Have it whatever way you like. It is still God doing an immoral thing.

I know that your mind set is to think that God is controlling Satan but as the wording and God’s actions clearly shows, this is not so. Satan ruled God that day.

only if you look at the passages you have provided and ignore everything else written.

That is the pertinent passage. If you think not then show which is.

Psa 5: 5 For Thou art not a God that hath pleasure in wickedness; evil shall not sojourn with Thee. 6 The boasters shall not stand in Thy sight; Thou hatest all workers of iniquity. 4 For you are not a God who delights in wickedness; evil may not dwell with you.

As Job 2;3 shows, evil definitely dwells in God and definitely sojourn.

two things. One you do know the difference between a Psalm (lymeric of Praise/Hymm) and a Doctrinal book correct? Also what Translation did you quote Job 2:3 from? I look at a few different version and did not find anything like what you posted.
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?sea...rsion=NKJV

I went to the original Jewish works. It is their myth so I did not want to quote some of the newer translations.

http://www.mechon-mamre.org/p/pt/pt2701.htm

Some of you will say that regardless of the immorality of God’s actions, you can ignore them as you have a new covenant with Jesus. I see this as a cop out on your part. Jesus was not born divine. He had to become divine as we all must according to scriptures. These say he was a Rabbi only and had to force his apotheosis the way we all must through seeking God.

Before anyone says anything else first we need to confirm what you said is actually true.

My quotes from scriptures follow. Do you not believe scriptures?
They are from the KJ version in case you want to check the context.

Job 25; 4 How then can man be just with God? Or how can he be clean that is born of a woman?
Hebrew 5; 8 Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered;

If a man did what God did to Job, Christians would soundly condemn that man yet you elevate God for doing the same immoral actions.

Why? Because we see other men as equals, and in your arguement here you are trying to bring God down as an equal. Understand He is not your 'equal' and how or what you judge another man by, does not apply to God.

Certainly it does. Man has the same capability for morals as God does. God's words from Genesis say that ---he has become as God's in knowing good and evil. IOW, man has God's exact moral sense.

You do so because your fear death and crave heaven but your poor moral position insures that hell will be your end result as immoral souls do not earn heaven. Let evil be in your heart as God does but remember that recognizing it is what is important. Not the fact that it is there.

If you want to point out things like that i could say you fear judgement, and have tried to kill God off in your mind so you can live this life however you see fit.

With better morals. Yes.

Do you realize that your morality has been compromised by religion and that you are not following the law of God that is written on your heart?

Thank God for that!

You are giving God a pass when you should be giving him a fail, ---- just as you would give an evil man?

even if you had the authority to judge God, then what? Would YOU try and send God to Hell?
Yeah, good luck with that.

Scriptures say that he is already there.

Ps 139 8
If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there.

Let your spiritual nature guide you. Not a corrupted religion.

Just like they did in Hilter's Germany, Or Stallin's russia, or Moa's China, Or Kim Jong il's or Kim Il sung's North Korea! Good advice.

Regards
Drich

They followed your genocidal God's example as scriptures urge us to do and here you nare complaining about it.

Shall we have a pissing contest as to who caused the most attrocities?

You should not bother because God takes the crtedit for his own as well as man's

Nehemiah 13:18
Did not your fathers thus, and did not our God bring all this evil upon us, and upon this city?

Jeremiah 19:15
Thus saith the LORD of hosts, the God of Israel; Behold, I will bring upon this city and upon all her towns all the evil that I have pronounced against it,

Amo 3:6 Shall a trumpet be blown in the city, and the people not be afraid? shall there be evil in a city, and the LORD hath not done it?

Regards
DL

[Greatest I am]

The bible does show his giving Satan the power to deceive the whole world. Strange that that power failed with Job. So much for God's power.

Where and, more importantly, when?

Revelation 12:9
And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

You are right that Job came out ok in the end but does that justify God or Satan killing all those others who definitely did not come out ok?

How do you know that those killed did not come out OK? Heaven is definitely OK. How do you know Job's children did not end up there?

I cannot know they did not and you cannot know they did. The odds are on my side as your God indicates that the many take the wide road to hell while the few take the narrow road to heaven.

We do know for sure though that to be killed is not Ok.

You say that God controlled Satan yet this shows the reverse.
"although thou didst move Me against him, to destroy him without cause."

I can try to incite you to do something. It's still your choice to do it. If you do, that doesn't indicate I controlled you.

You offering the choice means I might not have thought of it on my own but you do have a small point but that just means that God decided to punish a man without cause on his own. I gladly give you that, immoral of God, point.

Do you think it moral to kill or punish someone without cause?

Job did: "The Lord gave, and the Lord has taken away;
Blessed be the name of the Lord.”

So you think it moral to yake back what you give someone.

Xmas must be some fun at you house friend. Yuk.





Regards
DL

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Here's a question. What's a right, and what does it mean for God to have one? Is a god with rights different from a god without rights. Where did he get them?

Second, I think you're subsuming the right of ownership in this act of creation. I may create a child, and for a time, my rights do resemble property rights, but as soon as that child gains sufficient autonomy in one or more areas, those pseudo-property rights start falling away. Are we God's property then, just as the negroe slaves were the property of European and American slave owners? Is that your relationship to God, do you consider yourself both property and essentially God's slave.

(For what it's worth, I theorize that rights are created by men; the notion of a natural right is an oxymoron to me. But I don't want to derail this away from your views. I simply point this out, a, in the interest of disclosure, and in hindsight, b, the concept of a "right" natural or otherwise, isn't a natural kind; we can't go out into the forest and harvest some rights; rights exist as a concept, deeply embedded in a web of values and philosophy. Where did you get the values and philosophical bulwark that defines rights in such a way that we can infer that God has them? If you say, "from God," then your argument becomes circular and essentially vacuous. Who defines what a right is, how is it defined, what is a right, and are they objective?)

Not badly put.

If I may, I would like to add that with the attainment of rights and freedoms comes the responsibility of insuring that all share those same rights and freedoms. We are to help each other keep those rights and freedoms or we all stand to lose then at the hands of those, like God in this case, or anyone with more power in the real world, who would just claw them back or deny them.

Regards
DL

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How do you know that those killed did not come out OK?

You ARE a fucking riot.

PLEASE someone nominate this quote for the "Dumbest Things Christians Have Said 2012 Awards"

I implore you AF staff.

There are other good candidates.





Regards
DL

[Undeceived]

Hitler played the Christian card like any smart politician so he could have the people's support. It's pretty clear his values lay in contrast: http://constitutionalistnc.tripod.com/hi...t/id2.html

[Angrboda]

One of the rather simplistic lessons drawn from Job, often, is that we don't have the moral authority to condemn God or his actions. If this is the case, does it not also follow that we lack the moral authority to justify him? If his morals are indeed beyond the pale of our meager sensibilities, the appropriate conclusion would seem to be that we can't know, that we must remain agnostic on the question of whether the God we follow is moral or immoral. That leaves me with some profound difficulties in concluding that God's commandments are in and of themselves moral, if we are indeed ultimately unable to assess his morals. If all of the above follows, why follow God's mandates at all? Might as well get out the I Ching and decide the fate of prisoners with the random alignment of a throw of bones; unknowable is unknowable, for both good or ill.

[Undeceived]

You're right we are in no place to judge, which is why God tells us,
"Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.’ And ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.' There is no commandment greater than these." (Mark 12:30-31)
Love is moral. Unloving is immoral.

[Angrboda]

Says the God whose commandments can't be determined to be moral...

[Zen Badger]

You're right we are in no place to judge, which is why God tells us,
"Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.’ And ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.' There is no commandment greater than these." (Mark 12:30-31)
Love is moral. Unloving is immoral.

But when god hates that's OK?

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Leviticus 20:23 - "And ye shall not walk in the manners of the nation, which I cast out before you: for they committed all these things, and therefore I abhorred them."

Leviticus 26:30 - "And I will destroy your high places, and cut down your images, and cast your carcases upon the carcases of your idols, and my soul shall abhor you."

Deuteronomy 32:19 - "And when the LORD saw it, he abhorred them, because of the provoking of his sons, and of his daughters."

Psalm 5:5 - "The foolish shall not stand in thy sight: thou hatest all workers of iniquity."

Psalm 5:6 - "Thou shalt destroy them that speak leasing: the LORD will abhor the bloody and deceitful man."

Psalm 10:3 - "For the wicked boasteth of his heart's desire, and blesseth the covetous, whom the LORD abhorreth."

Psalm 11:5 - "The LORD trieth the righteous: but the wicked and him that loveth violence his soul hateth."

Psalm 53:5 - "There were they in great fear, where no fear was: for God hath scattered the bones of him that encampeth against thee: thou hast put them to shame, because God hath despised them."

Psalm 73:20 - "As a dream when one awaketh; so, O Lord, when thou awakest, thou shalt despise their image."

Psalm 78:59 - "When God heard this, he was wroth, and greatly abhorred Israel:"

Psalm 106:40 - "Therefore was the wrath of the LORD kindled against his people, insomuch that he abhorred his own inheritance."

Proverbs 6:16-19 - "These six things doth the LORD hate: yea, seven are an abomination unto him: A proud look, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood, An heart that deviseth wicked imaginations, feet that be swift in running to mischief, A false witness that speaketh lies, and he that soweth discord among brethren."

Proverbs 22:14 - "The mouth of strange women is a deep pit: he that is abhorred of the LORD shall fall therein."

Lamentations 2:6 - "And he hath violently taken away his tabernacle, as if it were of a garden: he hath destroyed his places of the assembly: the LORD hath caused the solemn feasts and sabbaths to be forgotten in Zion, and hath despised in the indignation of his anger the king and the priest."

Hosea 9:15 - "All their wickedness is in Gilgal: for there I hated them: for the wickedness of their doings I will drive them out of mine house, I will love them no more: all their princes are revolters."

Zechariah 11:8 - "Three shepherds also I cut off in one month; and my soul lothed them, and their soul also abhorred me."

Malachi 1:3 - "And I hated Esau, and laid his mountains and his heritage waste for the dragons of the wilderness."

Romans 9:13 - "As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated."

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[Welsh cake]

You're right we are in no place to judge, which is why God tells us,

You've already judged your imaginary friend to be good.

Shame on you.

[John V]

One of the rather simplistic lessons drawn from Job, often, is that we don't have the moral authority to condemn God or his actions. If this is the case, does it not also follow that we lack the moral authority to justify him? If his morals are indeed beyond the pale of our meager sensibilities, the appropriate conclusion would seem to be that we can't know, that we must remain agnostic on the question of whether the God we follow is moral or immoral. That leaves me with some profound difficulties in concluding that God's commandments are in and of themselves moral, if we are indeed ultimately unable to assess his morals.

That's part of why Christianity is admittedly requires faith.

If all of the above follows, why follow God's mandates at all?

First, as noted, one can have faith that God is good as he claims. Second, it's a good position practically.

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Because I'm not the king/emperor/dictator/legislative body/entire voting bloc of the US? Obvious answer is obvious.

So God, as king of all creation, is the one who has authority to determine who has what rights. Thanks!

Would you like to start a thread about animals rights just to avoid establishing the rights of your god? Go right ahead, I'll be there.

No, I'm having fun right here watching you dance around the cognitive dissonance caused by fact that humans take liberties with lesser species, yet you charge god with evil for doing the same.

Do rights boil down to opinions? In and of themselves, yeah, you could probably stretch and call them that. Not that this makes them less compelling.

So, animal rights activists are just as compelling in their position that people who eat meat, kill pests, etc. are wrong, as you charge God with being wrong.

I suppose god cares about you charge as much as the people in a FIve Guys care about PETA.

And BTW, when you base your argument on consistency, pointing out your hypocrisy is a valid argument, not a fallacy.

LOL...unfortunately it isn't pointing out an appeal to hypocrisy(need a wiki link again?), nor have you shown any hypocrisy in the more common usage of the term, nor would it matter if you had. [/quote]
Yes, it matters. Again, when you make a claim of consistency, pointing out your inconsistency is not fallacious.

The only person appealing to hypocrisy here is you, ffs.

Yes, as your positions are hypocritical and mine aren't, and you made a specific claim of consistency.

For some reason you think that drilling out my moral principles, or a lack of consistency in my application of them will excuse you, or god-from having to establish your position.

No, I think that showing lack of consistency refutes your claim of consistency. As you said:

AI won't get you any farther with me, because I;m consistent in my application of rights, I wouldn't lord over AI any more than I would accept anyone lording over me. Self determination. If I deny another sentient being a right we have determined originates in sentience then who am I to protest when another labors to deny me that right?

Considering the supermarket, we apparently haven't determined that life is a right which originates in sentience. So, who are you to protest if god also denies men that right?

All rights, as I've already explained.

See above. Apparently the rights which originate in sentience are few and trivial, if there are any at all.

Would it be fair, at this point, to conclude that you simply can't explain any of this, and that you felt compelled to make a claim which you were incapable of or unwilling to elaborate upon?

Which claim is that, and how do you know I felt a compulsion to make it?

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So you think it moral to yake back what you give someone.

Xmas must be some fun at you house friend. Yuk.

Seriously? That's your response? Why even bother?

[Greatest I am]

One of the rather simplistic lessons drawn from Job, often, is that we don't have the moral authority to condemn God or his actions. If this is the case, does it not also follow that we lack the moral authority to justify him? If his morals are indeed beyond the pale of our meager sensibilities, the appropriate conclusion would seem to be that we can't know, that we must remain agnostic on the question of whether the God we follow is moral or immoral. That leaves me with some profound difficulties in concluding that God's commandments are in and of themselves moral, if we are indeed ultimately unable to assess his morals. If all of the above follows, why follow God's mandates at all? Might as well get out the I Ching and decide the fate of prisoners with the random alignment of a throw of bones; unknowable is unknowable, for both good or ill.

Astute.

I get frustrated sometimes when I am told that I cannot judge God by people who have judged him good.

A Christian blind spot. One on many IMO.

Regards
DL

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You're right we are in no place to judge, which is why God tells us,
"Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.’ And ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.' There is no commandment greater than these." (Mark 12:30-31)
Love is moral. Unloving is immoral.

You say we cannot judge God yet you judge that he should be loved.

Rather foolish that.

Did you judge your wife before deciding to love her?

Yes you did. So why change that good and intelligent methodology and practice and love one you have not judged?

Regards
DL