sex before marriage

[Brian37]

I hate the either or debate about sex before marriage.

The real issue is the sex itself, not marriage. I know what I was like as a teen and full of hormones and horny. But I did take needless risk and could have gotten a few women pregnant, and or picked up something without knowing. THAT is the real issue.

Planning and knowing your body and how it works and the risks involved and the safty needed ,and knowing your partner, Not marriage vs not getting married.

The bottom line if you don't want a baby or a desease, the best thing is to not have sex. Barring that, wrap it and any genatile or anal fluid exchange "blow jobs do count", can transmit desease.

[ThatMuslimGuy]

you claim that the qurans intentions are to make sure women are taken care of which i cant argue with, arguing about the intentions of a 1500 year old book which is written in a language i cant speak is beyond me.
And in islamic society where polygamy is acceptable youre right that the man needs to prove he has enough money in these circumstances to look after the women.
But the more we speak about men having enough money to afford 4 wives the more shallow it seems to me.
And we are talking about traditions from a book which definitely doesnt view women as equal, im almost certain even muslims with the wildest imaginations couldnt argue against that. A womans testimony is worth less in court, it says god created women less than men and that men can admonish and beat women if they fear rebelion from them.
But this thread really isnt here to argue about all that anyway, i was more hoping to get to know what individual muslim experiences are regarding this, like i said most of the muslims i know or know of either dont have the will power to not have sex or they just dont take the rule seriously, but whats your experience? for example, did you lose your virginity to your wife? dont you ever feel temptation?
i was looking for a bit more than ridged scholarly answers

Just wanted to adress a few points:

"A womans testimony is worth less in court"

THIS IS FALSE.


This is common misconception found on many sites and will be common through peoples thinking. If i asked a person about women rights in islam they would reply "but a women's witness is only worth half a mans".

There is very simple reply to this question. That it is false! The Quran speaks about witnesses in no less than 5 places in the Quran. In all verses apart from one verse a women's testimony is equal to that of a man's. So why is it in this verse that a women's witness is different? The answer is very simple when we look at the verse and the structure of an Islamic society.
In surah 2:282 - the longest chapter in the quran it says:

http://c00022506.cdn1.cloudfiles.rackspa.../2_282.png

2:282
Sahih International
O you who have believed, when you contract a debt for a specified term, write it down. And let a scribe write [it] between you in justice. Let no scribe refuse to write as Allah has taught him. So let him write and let the one who has the obligation dictate. And let him fear Allah , his Lord, and not leave anything out of it. But if the one who has the obligation is of limited understanding or weak or unable to dictate himself, then let his guardian dictate in justice. And bring to witness two witnesses from among your men. And if there are not two men [available], then a man and two women from those whom you accept as witnesses - so that if one of the women errs, then the other can remind her.

Yusuf Ali
O ye who believe! When ye deal with each other, in transactions involving future obligations in a fixed period of time, reduce them to writing Let a scribe write down faithfully as between the parties: let not the scribe refuse to write: as Allah Has taught him, so let him write. Let him who incurs the liability dictate, but let him fear His Lord Allah, and not diminish aught of what he owes. If they party liable is mentally deficient, or weak, or unable Himself to dictate, Let his guardian dictate faithfully, and get two witnesses, out of your own men, and if there are not two men, then a man and two women, such as ye choose, for witnesses, so that if one of them errs, the other can remind her.

This verse explicity talks about financial transactions and nothing else.
In an Islamic society men have to provide financial support for the women in the society, his mother, sisters, wife and children. The women in the society can contribute if they wish but they don't have to. So in a society with this basis overall the men will be more financially aware. This is why if you cant find a man for the transaction then find two women because on average these women wont be as knowledgeable of financial transactions or the men will more knowledgeable in financial transactions. I'm not saying women don't have the capability i'm just saying on average.
Let me explain this using an example. Suppose a person wants to undergo an operation for a particular problem. To confirm this treatment, he would prefer taking references from two qualified surgeons. In case he is unable to find two surgeons, his second option would be one surgeon and two general practitioners.

Similarly in financial transactions men are expected to be well versed in financial transactions as they have the financial responsibility.

It should also be noted that a women witness is preferred also in some cases. When giving the burial bath of a women the witness has to be a women.

Every other situation that requires witnesses a women's witness is equal to a mans. To prove this point further:
Ayesha (May Allah be pleased with her) the wife of the beloved prophet has narrated no less than over 2220 ahadith which are considered authentic only on her solitary evidence. If Islam said a women witness is half a mans this wouldn't be allowed. This is sufficient proof that one witness of a women is equal to a mans.

In summary "A womans testimony is worth less in court" is false and incorrect. A women's witness is equal to a mans in every situation apart from specific financial transactions and a women's burial bath where a women is preferred.

This is explained in this video between 29:00-36:45
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hg9GaR48QzU

" it says god created women less than men"

reference?

"that men can admonish and beat women if they fear rebelion from them"

This is false they cannot beat women and mistranslation of Surah 4:34:

The men are supporters/maintainers of the women with what God bestowed on some of them over others and with what they spent of their money, so the righteous women are dutiful; guardians to the unseen with what God guarded. And as for those women you fear their disloyalty, then: (first) you shall advise them, and (second) abandon them in the bed, and (lastly) cite them (to the authority). If they obeyed you, then seek not against them a way; Truly, God is High, Great. [4:34]
And if you (authority) feared a rift between them two, then appoint a judge from his family and a judge from hers. If they both want to reconcile, then God will bring agreement between them. God is Knowledgeable, Expert. [4:35]

Wife beating is haram.

Explained in :
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=pla...OGe-NI3wQA
22mins

and

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=pla...1DpNIJL-Fk

Up to 3mins

As for scholarly opinions on sex before marriage i haven't researched it.

[Al-Fatihah]

I never stated anyone had nonconsensual sex.

No one stated sex is not supposed to be sexual.

No one said it couldn't. Halfway though my response and you still haven't addressed anything.

jet earlier you posted:

What's wrong is that lust is the idea of having sex to please yourself

There is nothing wrong in having one's sex life controlled when the control is simply to prevent the act of being used sexually.

It is not just a muslim thing not to take the rule against sex before marriage seriously

Oh dear.

I guess that makes you a dishonest poster.

Response: You just proved my point, as nothing in my post says the words "anyone had nonconsensual sex". Debunked as usual.

You have replied by quoting my original post, by editing it to have a meaning it didn`t have in it`s original form!

This is against the forum rules!

You have 2 hours to edit your post or I will report you!

Response: Nope. It's the same foolish post of yours in it's original form. So you need a few hours to quit crying with the nonsense. Get back to me when you're finish.

Human sex ratio clearly states that there are 105 men for 100 women on average.

FACTS!

Response: The ratio is based on birth, not current population. DEBUNKD!!!

Are you that thick!

The requirement for charity being that one has to marry the impoverished person is the part I call sick.

Need a drawing!?

Response: Which is the same part that makes your ideology sick for stating such idiocy. Need a cell block?

---

you claim that the qurans intentions are to make sure women are taken care of which i cant argue with, arguing about the intentions of a 1500 year old book which is written in a language i cant speak is beyond me.
And in islamic society where polygamy is acceptable youre right that the man needs to prove he has enough money in these circumstances to look after the women.
But the more we speak about men having enough money to afford 4 wives the more shallow it seems to me.
And we are talking about traditions from a book which definitely doesnt view women as equal, im almost certain even muslims with the wildest imaginations couldnt argue against that. A womans testimony is worth less in court, it says god created women less than men and that men can admonish and beat women if they fear rebelion from them.
But this thread really isnt here to argue about all that anyway, i was more hoping to get to know what individual muslim experiences are regarding this, like i said most of the muslims i know or know of either dont have the will power to not have sex or they just dont take the rule seriously, but whats your experience? for example, did you lose your virginity to your wife? dont you ever feel temptation?
i was looking for a bit more than ridged scholarly answers

Response: The roles of men and women in islam are not the same. So naturally, their rights shoulld not be equal. That does not mean that their rights are not equal in justice. In islam men are to protect women, thus giving women the right to take the wealth of men and use it for no one but herself, while the man does not have that right. Instead, he must spend his wealth on the women and the family. In other words, here is a right that women have that men don't have that benefits women only. Similarly, their are rights that men have as protectors. But in the end, the difference rights do not bring about injustice, as both men and women benefit from these differences of rights.

Regarding testimony, such is not the case. Men and women have equals rights in testimony in court, and wife beating is exaggerated. The prescribed discipline is a light tap, the the force and weight of a bristle of a toothbrush. Thus since it leaves no pain or scars, there is nothing unjust about it except the complaint that it's not liked. It's a punishment, it's not supposed to be liked. Therefore it is just.

As for my personal sex life, sorry but I don't answer such personal questions.

[paulpablo]

Muslim guy i dont know if you have problems with your ability to read, im genuinely asking this sincerely, but i actually said i DONT want to argue the point about wether or not it says a husband can beat his wife in this thread because ive read many many many translations of the quran and seen that it blatently does say a huband can. And i DONT want scholars opinions on sex before marriage.
I said i wanted muslims own personal experiences on if they get tempted by sex before marriage, if not why not. And if they did lose their virginity to their wife and so on.
Your story so far as im aware is that youre going to not eat food to exhaust yourself everytime you feel a sexual urge and youre going to marry as soon as possible, which is fair enough if thats how you want to live your life.

[ThatMuslimGuy]

Muslim guy i dont know if you have problems with your ability to read, im genuinely asking this sincerely, but i actually said i DONT want to argue the point about wether or not it says a husband can beat his wife in this thread because ive read many many many translations of the quran and seen that it blatently does say a huband can. And i DONT want scholars opinions on sex before marriage.
I said i wanted muslims own personal experiences on if they get tempted by sex before marriage, if not why not. And if they did lose their virginity to their wife and so on.
Your story so far as im aware is that youre going to not eat food to exhaust yourself everytime you feel a sexual urge and youre going to marry as soon as possible, which is fair enough if thats how you want to live your life.

Sorry i didnt mean for an argument. I apologize. i just felt i should clarify somethings you said.
Personally yeah you get tempted. But it's about dealing with that temptation. Masturbation is a huge temptation but it's about trying to stop it. So banning porn, stopping avenues that could lead to the temptation, remembering it doesnt benefit me only harms, remembering that it degradates women and watching porn will only make the porn industry more money. Then having the goal of going to heaven and not hell. But tbh most of time this goes out the window and you sin.

Islamically if you get tempted or any sexual thought enters the mind a man is told to lower his gaze and guard his private parts, surah 24:30 Sahih International
Tell the believing men to reduce [some] of their vision and guard their private parts. That is purer for them. Indeed, Allah is Acquainted with what they do.

Meaning that say i see a sexually attractive women and get the temptation that i should lower my gaze and guard my chastity. And we are told that if we look up again that second look is from shaytaan e.g. bad a sin.
Same applies for women, Surah 24:31:
Sahih International
And tell the believing women to reduce [some] of their vision and guard their private parts

So this sort of helps day to day and in an islamic society the temptation would never arise. however in a non-islamic country this is hard to follow. Due to obvious temptation. But i duno rambling here but its just will power, remembering the bad effects of the sin, remember allah's reward in the hereafter and his punishment.

Personally i'm not gonna fast. And i'm going to marry who i love not a quick marriage.

[Minimalist]

To ensure that sex is taking place out of love and not simply out of lust or using one sexually to fulfill one's own desires, then islam allows sexual relations only with the promise to agree to love and protect each other as well in writing.

Bullshit, like everything else.....


http://www.foxnews.com/us/2013/01/04/ser...hild-rape/

LAS VEGAS – A sergeant in Saudi Arabia's air force was jailed in Las Vegas on charges that he pulled a young boy into a hotel room and sexually assaulted him the morning of Sin City's big New Year's Eve fireworks extravaganza.

Mazen Alotaibi, 23, faces charges including kidnapping, sexual assault with a minor and felony coercion that could get him decades in state prison, according to police and charging documents obtained Friday.

The boy, who is younger than 14, told police the man forced him into a room at the Circus Circus hotel on the Las Vegas Strip and raped him. Police arrested Alotaibi after being called to the hotel before 9:30 a.m. on Dec. 31.

Perhaps he mistook the kid for a camel?

[KichigaiNeko]

I've often wondered if men have inserted into "sacred texts" the "no sex before marriage", and "the wife must be a virgin" because of performance pressure?

[The Grand Nudger]

You think that confidence in transmission of property (and care thereof) to your own progeny wouldn't satisfy that peculiar little gem all by itself Kichi? Reproductive exclusivity.

[KichigaiNeko]

You think that confidence in transmission of property (and care thereof) to your own progeny wouldn't satisfy that peculiar little gem all by itself Kichi?

Sorry mate, not understanding how male sexual performance translates to transference of a females own property and existing children?

[The Grand Nudger]

LOL, no no no. Put yourself in the shoes of some douchbag trying to hedge his life against what-have-you by claiming that god said this or that. Lets say that one of the things he worries about, is that the children he raises my not be his own, specifically, that the property he confers to "his" children might actually be conferred to someone else's children that he happened to be raising. It might seem, to said douchebag, that it would be prudent to claim that god doesn't want people to have any sort of sexual relationship outside of marriage. The wife being a virgin is easily understood as another assurance of the same. Conveniently he might get around this inconvenient proclamation -himself- by taking dozens of wives (but how often are women granted dozens of husbands?)

What I'm suggesting, is that the douchebag involved probably didn't actually care whether or not he could "perform"...what would that even mean to him (you've already given him entirely too much credit in caring about his performance with a female that was going to get counted in with his cattle when he settled his affairs)? It's not like he's in it to get -her- rocks off. But it;s easy to see how obsessed with reproductive exclusivity he was.