Christ's birthday

[rjh4 is back]

There is a diffirence between selectively killing animals for food or just killing them for no reason so I don't see the relevance of your question.

You did not answer my question but from your answer I will assume you are not a vegetarian. You seem to be saying here that it is ok to kill animals if there is an acceptable reason to do it. If it is ok for you (personally or by proxy) to kill animals why was it so wrong for God to? Do you know that God did not have an acceptable reason? Do you know what God's reason was? I don't. But just because we do not know the reason doesn't mean there isn't one. The fact is, Craveman, you are looking at all of this, including the death of humans, and you put God on the same level as you and I do not agree with this perspective at all. Do you have a problem with capital punishment? Governments put people to death all the time. Governments act as judge over people without having a full understanding of the motives of people. God certainly knows more of the motives of people than any government. I know you must be thinking now something along the lines of "that might be applicable for adults or humans of a certain age but what about infants". Well you do not need the flood to make that argument. You could argue that the God of the Bible is horrible for ever allowing an innocent life, i.e., and infant, to die. Again, I will say that I certainly do not know why God allows certain things. But it seems pretty clear to me that the God of the Bible knows a lot more than me (and you), He created it all, and whatever God does He has a valid reason for it even if I do not know what it is. (God does not consult me on these things.)

I would like to reiterate here that I think the problem is that you feel it is somehow appropriate for you to judge God's actions. You take a look at something God did or allowed and with your imperfect knowledge of things judge that God was wrong for doing or allowing it like God was a human or your peer. This, Craveman, is you setting yourself up as a god over God. Feel free to do it, but that is not how I look at things.

The Bible tells of a God who is the standard for everything and because we do not have perfect knowledge like God, God put some limits on us as humans (do not murder). It does not tell of a God who is to be judged as a human. So I will now conclude that you have not yet shown any inconsistency in the Bible. You have merely shown that you do not understand the Bible.

[Darwinian]

Like I've said many times before. Christians are 'in love' with the Bible and can never see any problems with it. For them, it is the standard by which the rest of the world is judged.

And when conflicts arise between the Bible and the rest of then world then it is the rest of the world that has to be found wanting and mental gymnastics that have to be performed in order not to allow any notion of imperfection to be levied at this oh, so perfect work of fiction.

And with respect, rjh4's whole ascertain seem to be.. "The Lord works in mysterious ways, his wonders to perform." Which never really answers anything.

[Minimalist]

Do you know that God did not have an acceptable reason? Do you know what God's reason was?

If you are going to go through the trouble of inventing a 'god' it should not be too hard to invent a reason for him to do anything. You see how easy all this god shit is? Whatever you can imagine you can make him do. It's a subtle appeal having an invisible friend.

Many children have invisible friends.


Most grow out of it by the time they are 5 or 6.

[Craveman]

If it is ok for you (personally or by proxy) to kill animals why was it so wrong for God to?

So now you are now comparing us mere mortals (who have depended on animals for food for thousands of years) to God? There is a big difference between humans killing animals for food because they depend on it and a supposedly all-loving God killing just because he didn't like the fact that humans sinned. His displeasure was with the humans not the animals. Seriously, do you really see this as moral and fair?

Do you know what God's reason was? I don't

Let me refresh your memory: As per the Bible it was because the humans sinned too much for his liking therefore he decided to kill them all. (Genesis 6:1 - 9:17)

The fact is, Craveman, you are looking at all of this, including the death of humans, and you put God on the same level as you and I do not agree with this perspective at all.

I don't go around killing humans (and animals just for added extra) just because they have sinned. Taking into consideration that God's idea of sinning is when people are gay, work on a Sabbath, have a different religion, to name a few. So I will actually like to put myself above the level of your so called "loving" God. I really do not wish to be assosiated with him...

The Bible tells of a God who is the standard for everything and because we do not have perfect knowledge like God, God put some limits on us as humans (do not murder). It does not tell of a God who is to be judged as a human. So I will now conclude that you have not yet shown any inconsistency in the Bible. You have merely shown that you do not understand the Bible.

Damn! All of this because you didn't agree with one example that I gave you? You want inconsistancies? Here you go:

http://www.cs.umd.edu/~mvz/bible/bible-i...encies.pdf
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internal_co..._the_Bible
http://nitwitnastik.wordpress.com/2009/0...the-bible/
http://answering-christianity.com/bs_and_lies.htm
http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/d...ncies.html

PS: These are only 5 of 260 000 websites that came up on a quick google search. So kindly reply to this post in a few years time when you've had enough time to read through all of them

[chatpilot]

Lmao!! Too funny Craveman. rjh4 as I stated earlier Christians love to play the blame game when it comes to their fictitious god. He made us perfect to live and worship him and kiss his ass for all eternity etc. etc. But when we sinned we are to blame for all of the worlds evil and the many things that afflict the human condition. The bible loves to exalt this egotistical maniacal god while at the same time it does its best to belittle mankind.

Isaiah 55:8,9
8.For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD.
9.For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.

Obviously we humans are too stupid to know a myth from a fact. Christians make me sick with their the ways of the Lord are mysterious beyond our knowing etc. That is just an easy way to save face instead of saying "I don't Know".

[rjh4 is back]

Christians are 'in love' with the Bible ... For them, it is the standard by which the rest of the world is judged.

I agree.

And with respect, rjh4's whole ascertain seem to be.. "The Lord works in mysterious ways, his wonder to perform." Which never really answers anything.

Funny how it is so acceptable here for the agnostic atheists to say "I don't know" about somethings. But when I say I don't know something about God, you mock. Interesting.

All of this because you didn't agree with one example that I gave you? You want inconsistancies? Here you go:

http://www.cs.umd.edu/~mvz/bible/bible-i...encies.pdf
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internal_co..._the_Bible
http://nitwitnastik.wordpress.com/2009/0...the-bible/
http://answering-christianity.com/bs_and_lies.htm
http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/d...ncies.html

PS: These are only 5 of 260 000 websites that came up on a quick google search. So kindly reply to this post in a few years time when you've had enough time to read through all of them

Wow. I'll have to say, that response was unexpected. If you didn't want to discuss this any more, you could have just said so.

Christians make me sick with their the ways of the Lord are mysterious beyond our knowing etc. That is just an easy way to save face instead of saying "I don't Know".

Did you actually read my post or only Darwinians' characterizatiion of it? If you read my post, I actually said that I didn't know a couple of times. So I say "I don't know", somebody here characterizes this as "the Lord works in mysterious ways" and you criticize the characterization rather than what I said. Am I the only one who sees a problem with this?

[Edwardo Piet]

What makes you think there's a God in the first place, that is mysterious? You believe in God when there's no evidence of him, when we question him you more or less say he "works in mysterious ways".

Agnostic atheists say they don't know that God doesn't absolutely exist, because that's a logical fallacy - the Negative Proof fallacy. Agnostic atheists such as myself, can't know that - so we accept that we can be wrong.

That's different to believing in something, at least ostensibly without any evidence and then when questioned simply saying that it's "mysterious" - if it's that bloody mysterious, if it's so mysterious that you basically can't seem to give any evidence at all, why do you think he exists?

As I said, what makes you think there's a God in the first place, that is mysterious?

EvF

[Ace Otana]

Funny how it is so acceptable here for the agnostic atheists to say "I don't know" about somethings. But when I say I don't know something about God, you mock. Interesting.

Because we are not claiming anything but you are. We don't know what caused the universe and we admit that because we lack knowledge on that subject. You on the other hand claim that some supernatural being that is non-temporal created everything without a shred of evidence to back up your assertions. If you claim there is a god despite total lack of evidence, then it is expected that you should know something of it that may of caused you to believe in it, no?

[Craveman]

Wow. I'll have to say, that response was unexpected. If you didn't want to discuss this any more, you could have just said so.

OK, Apologies, rjh4. My post was not meant in a nasty way but merely as friendly banter! I really don't mind to continue with the debate...

OK, do you believe in the whole Bible then? Have you truly read the OT? You are saying that we would never know the reasons why God does certain things. This is a nice excuse to hide behind when God does inhumane things. There are many stories in the OT where God is portrayed as sexist, warmonger, promotes slavery, homophobic, egotistical, etc. In my eyes this is NOT an all-loving God and I do not wish to ever worhip this God (not that I believe in him in the first place). It is easy for you Christians to hide behind "God is to complex for us to understand". If that is your reasoning, why believe anything in the Bible?

Have I at least convinced you that there ARE many inconsistancies in the Bible? This seemed to be your whole argument...

[chatpilot]

When I say I don't know I mean I don't know I don't go off and attribute my lack of understanding to some invisible guy in the sky and his desire not to reveal it to me.